Beyond Money -- Follow-up Info and Discussion

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ST Frequency
July 15, 2009

Thanks to all who attended the "Beyond Money" Spore! Let's use this space to go deeper into what we learned and discussed at the event. Post your insights, ideas, and plans of action here.

Here's how to get in touch with Josh Sharp and the Atlanta Time Bank:

https://www.atlantatimebank.org/

For those interested in researching further into the economic crisis, time banking, and complementary currencies, here are some recommended articles and presentations:

Chris Martenson's "Crash Course"
http://www.chrismartenson.com

Matt Taibbi -- "The Big Takeover: How Wall Street Insiders are Using the Bailout to Stage a Revolution"
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/22-6

"Money as Debt" -- video presentation
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544

Money and the Crisis of Civilization
by Charles Eisenstein

Evolving Toward Local Credits
by Thomas H. Greco

Money and the Turning of the Age
by Charles Eisenstein

Program Your Own Money
by Douglas Rushkoff

-Evolver Atlanta

3 Comments
posted in: Evolver Atlanta

Comments

Debt is not the problem

Dav Frayne — Jul 16, 2009

I think debt gets a bad rap in a lot of these mini-courses about money.

Debt is a really good, positive, life-affirming thing. It represents an exchange of value that transcends time and physical objects, based on trust.

But does that mean our monetary system is just peachy? No, there are two problems.

First, the people controlling the money supply, i.e. writing the rules of the game, have a specific agenda based on the belief that our way of life is the best, and everyone in the world should live the way we do. When they raise or lower interest rates, or change the banking regulations, it is always with the intent of taking over the world and giving everyone bigger lawns and bigger garages full of crap. Manifest Destiny. Read Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn - great presentation of problem #1.

Problem #2 has to do with the money that's already out there. Because of inheritance laws, our social behavior relating to family and relatives, our intellectual property laws, and good old fashioned negotiating skills, most of the money is now in the hands of people who didn't do anything significant for society.

That is the "debt" we should be concerned about, the fact that someone can buy stuff with money they didn't ever earn means that society owes nearly all its resources to essentially random people. This isn't necessarily bad, it's just random. Most people find that making money and doing positive things for society are not in alignment. It's kind of like the "better" you are, the less you earn, as a rule.

That makes money messy, and in some cases, useless for accomplishing what we really care about. Like when you have a great idea that will make the world a better place, it's natural to go share your idea with rich people and institutions, in hopes of getting funded. Sometimes you find yourself pitching a great idea to a not-so-great audience. Wouldn't it be better if we could simply go to the best, most loving & caring, most honest & fair, smartest and hardest working people and institutions, I mean shouldn't those people be the richest ones, the ones in charge of saying what happens with the resources of the world?

Time banking solves this problem to some extent, because everyone has 24 hours in a day, so if you have lots of credits it means you did lots of work. However, if someone comes up with a way to get credits from others without having to work an hour for them, we'll be in the same boat again - for instance, if you can bequeath your unspent credits to your kids. And two people also might have the same number of credits in spite of the fact that one person worked much harder or did a much better job than the other.

I'm sure we can come up with creative solutions to these problems if we put our minds to it. The bottom line is that the rules of the money game should serve a sustainable worldview, and there should be a somewhat more predictable connection between the value a person gave to society and the value society owes them.

On debt...

ST Frequency — Jul 16, 2009

I think the central problem with our "debt-based money" as presented in the film we viewed, and in the philosophy of many thinkers/writers, lies in the fact that the creation of the currency is out of control and no one will ever be able to repay all this debt. As the banks can charge interest, creating new debt-money that was never in existence before, there's not enough in the system to pay the balance.

So it ties into capitalism and the perpetual exploitation of "capital" -- in resources, human lives, etc -- which is of course unsustainable and nearly run its course. This is also a surefire road to biospheric collapse and worldwide poverty, as all the debt-money is concentrated in the hands of the elite (as Dav is pointing out).

However, you can take the concept of Debt and imagine it more in the sense of Obligation, or Reciprocity. The gift economies of tribal societies were built on trust and a powerful ethic of philanthropy. If you happened upon someone who was hungry and needed food, you gave it to them unquestioningly. The idea is that, within the order and ethics of society, if you are hungry later on, others will feed you. In a sense, the person that receives the gift is "indebted" to the giver -- but it's not the same as the rapacious Debt machine we are slave to in our current economy. That is propelled by the philosophy or Capitalism, which has no guiding ethic other than competition, perpetual growth and exploitation.

I do like the Time Banking concept very much. There are certainly flaws as we all discussed last night. We didn't mention "demurrage" currencies -- which hold a negative interest and degrade over time. That dissuades people to hoard money, as it is losing value as long as you hold it. So you are encouraged to trade it quickly to maintain its highest value, and the flow of money is kept in motion. I believe that the Maya practice of trading with cacao beans can be understood as a version of demurrage, as they go bad over time. Also, of course, they grow on trees -- so there's no "monopoly", just delicious and sacred food trading hands for goods and services.

Any other thoughts along these lines?

;)
st

I agree that debt can be

Melinda — Feb 03, 2012

I agree that debt can be good. Fox example, I had to move to another state for employment purposes and I needed a car after the move. My only choice was to get a loan since I didn't have the cash to purchase a car and still have some emergency money left to cover the negative effect of a cross-country move.
But here's where it gets ugly. I had a car accident shortly after and my debt pretty much trippled. Going in debt is often unpredictable and this is why people like me end up in trouble. Had I not taken a car loan (maybe I should have purchased a super old $2K car), I wouldn't have to bang my head against the wall now that I'm going into a settlement program or bankrupty.

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