What should our Intention be towards animals in a Community?

Factory farming, whether of (non-organic) vegetables of of animals sucks ever so mightily, and is one of the key factors which is presently threatening biodiversity on the planet, and even perhaps the survival of the human species.

Probably the 2nd leading major suckage is intolerance, judgementalism, hate, war, etc.

People who choose to include animal products and/or flesh in their diets deserve love, tolerance, non-judgementalism every bit as much as any other NON-MILITANT human ... those who would judge others & band together to form an "ism" which stands in judgement of others are "part of the problem" and not part of the solution !

In many parts of the world there are not the options which we who are able to sit at a computer and ruminate about what other people eat .. do enjoy.

Until YOU have lived in near starvation, and LIVED because some animal was milked, or their dung was used for fertilizer, or yes- perhaps they gave their life to sustain yours .. .until you have been there --- I put forth that you have no ground to stand upon from which to judge.

Every form of life comes into this world, lives, and dies.
Life gives to life, that life may continue.
YOU are directly or indirectly a mass murderer of plants.

Get over it .. with the holier than thou stuff.

It is terrible to see people who are claiming heights of spirituality ... then casting stones down from their lofty self-enthronement !

I personally eat mostly vegetarian, have many, many beloved vegan friends, and have a low tolerance for judgementalism, whether it be sexual (many of my vegan friends are also gay / lesbian) or racial, or ageist, or, or, or.

Not pointing any fingers here, but have noted in my professional practice as a an alternative healer that there are plenty of people who are of the militant vegan stripe who are not emotionally well-adjusted in their relations with the human species .. in these instances, their veganism is a pathological expression.

Peace, Love, Tolerance...

warm wishes,
david hartley 510.859.4050  
www.holistiq.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer

Who is this "WE"
.. you got a mouse in your pocket ?

"some of us".... clearly need to become a bit more adroit at
NON-VIOLENT communication,
which is alluded to by Eureka:

"I need to intervene just for one moment here.
I created this group as a resource and I would very much like to keep it based in first-person experiences."

so...
Unless "WE" can manage to speak as individuals, with respect for the thoughts and feelings of other individuals ... "WE" remain addicted to cycles of violence.
By the "logic" of the previous post "WE" .... "SHOULD" ...
deny the free will of posters who "deny the true gravity"
of the fact that a lack of non-violent communication,
is implicitly a failure to communicate and explicitly a form of violence.

Keep remembering: we are the ones we've been waiting for.

Let "us" conduct ourselves accordingly, and inspect our communications to see where our passions may be leading into counter-productive & anti-communitarian forms of expression.

Lastly, I encourage everyone to consider that the will to impose doctrine and to deny the will of others based upon supposed "superior understanding" is the type of sheer egotism and moral/ethical dishonesty which has got human society to where it is today.

"WE" must BREAK OUT of these patterns in order to transcend the chains of our past.

warm wishes,
david hartley 510.859.4050  
www.holistiq.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer

When people cling to obviously absurd beliefs
-such as the one "I know it all, you're full of crap"
which we see displayed here and all-too-often by those heavily afflicted by ANY ISM and very specifically including vegan-ISM
-- all possibility of intelligent / compassionate discourse ceases.

Y'all are sounding like a bunch of Christian fundamentalists, just a new Jesus, your saviour is vegan-ISM.

I don't care if it rains or freezes, long as I got my plastic veganISM glued to the dashboard of my car...

You may not get to know it until after your dead, but just a little clue for you:
Not I, not you, not any of us has "the WHOLE TRUTH."
When anyone is living in the FANTASYLAND the s/he has "the WHOLE TRUTH" we call that being infatuated with EGO.
Satyagraha = "non violent" -and pretending to oneself to be involved in satyagraha while judging other people and engaging in a verbally violent style of communication is a messy pile of hypocrisy.

If you can't come down off'a those holier than thou thrones and engage in non-violent communication after several requests, it is extremely likely that you will never have to worry about what an intention "SHOULD" be in community
-because you will never be fit to live in and take part in community.

Another clue: if you can't even manage a civil discourse on this topic with a person who is 80 - 90% vegetarian & has bunches of CIVIL, friendly, and polite vegan friends..

well, think it over:
How many converts are you gonna make for and with your ISM ?

warm wishes,
david hartley 510.859.4050  
www.holistiq.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer

I would like to address the "isms", then add my own personal trials with ascribing to the Vegan diet.

Any kind of “ism” is prothletising a belief that is called upon to be a claimed truth, when it is only an experiential following of chosen thought. We all have our claimed, chosen truths, until we see beyond belief. Some are “good” some are “bad.” I once was a vegan, not long ago in fact, for over four years. Then my body shifted and asked to be fed nourishment that went beyond the vegan framework. When we box ourselves into these categorized groups, we are limiting our vison. I’m not saying don’t ascribe to certain protocols, I am only giving space to go beyond the pathologos. Being aware of the reasons why you choose a certain doctrine is central to go beyond belief.

Example, from my own experience, and what many others experience. You are given a book, or a video to watch exploiting the inhumane treatment of factory farmed animals. You See this suffering for yourself. It alters your perception, yet you only see a snipit of what is real. You may change your ways based on this teaching. Yes, this suffering is taking place, but you don’t have to partake, there are other ways than completely shifting your ways into this thought pattern that has already been formulated by someone else. It may be more difficult to seek out something that is outside your current frame of knowledge, what they tell you to do. Yet, it is fulfilling to know that you can create your own formula for health and for life. How must we return to a symbiotic relationship with Gaia? This is a question we should all ask ourselves. Look outside the box!

Back to the “isms,” today veganism is seen as a radical way of life that somehow transcends the ills of society, or so we are taught to think. When it is only another facet of the perpetual consumer way of life, and shuts doors into other realms of the true way of Gaia. Products of plastic wrapped soy, processed sweeteners, machine created materials that we transfer into our body as “food”. I can say that I have fulfilled my vegan pathologos, and learned much of what propels me today, so I see how it has shaped my current path. It has been an important thought pattern that prescribes what I see now. I’m not saying that I ever know the truth. I am a student of the universe, and learning what it is that influences my belief system.

Currently I have taken a liking to RAW Dairy, which is completely removed from the current model of pasteurized dairy. I was turned on to it by experiential stories of inner terrain modifying healings (contact me if you want to know more). Complete nutrition from animals that have been loved and cared for, produced through means of farming methods that work with the cycles of nature. Inside me, my terrain is filled with joy, utilizing all the vitamins and minerals I put into my mouth in the form of wild plants, superfoods, and fresh berries. Bottom line, it feels good in my body, and has propelled me into a higher existence. I can see beyond the logos that have shaped our society into this robotic model that questions nothing, into a place where I choose what to think and feel. Free Will. Liberum Arbitrium.

Agape,
AlchemyGoddess

In my experience there have been two ways of defining the word 'truth'. One is the 'truth' that each person holds their own unique perspective about the Nature of Reality. The other is Universal Truth, which I tend to distinguish from the other by spelling it with a capitol 'T'. Universal Truth is theoretically that which genuinely applies in all situations at all times. We humans like to use the term Natural Law to indicate a behavior that is so consistent in Nature that we have grown to rely on and expect that consistency to remain. Granted that even the so called 'Law of Gravity' is being scientifically scrutinized to determine it's validity, one might readily ask, "Who are we to insist what is right and what is wrong ethically/" It is this premise that some humans have chosen to either veer from social norms or cling to old value systems and castigate others for not readily commending them for their explorations. I am all for sincere Truth seeking which is why I have chosen to engage in this conversation. When I read the viewpoints of others that resonate with very familiar human patterns of denial and addiction, I express it. This is me offering my slice of truth to the thought pool. My hope is that with each of us contributing and receiving sincerely there is an ever improved chance of defining Truth a bit more clearly. Thus far every argument that I have ever heard that attempts to discount the idea that evolving to a more compassionate character individually or socially has been propelled by insecurities and a tendency to cling to old familiar comforts. Alchemy Goddess brings an interesting twist to this. She claims to feel better for having taken in raw milk and that the "animals that have been loved and cared for". I imagine that by today's standards the treatment they get looks a whole lot more loving and caring than what most receive. Yet the question here is, "How should animals be treated in community settings?" My personal truth is that we humans would learn a whole lot more about our selves and our place in Existence if we were to refrain from looking at sentient life as commodities or 'things' placed here for our exploitation, long enough (a few lifetimes) to let it sink in that THEY are US. If we were invaded by a 'superior intelligence' from another world would you willingly succumb to the 'loving care' that you afford the animals in your realm or would you prefer to be set free? Answer that honestly and you will have a better definition of the Truth about animal exploitation.

Maluhia

One question...Have any of you actually worked on a farm???

I am so grateful that the vegans here are so passionate about the protection of animal life. It is central to our being to be compassionate and caring for all that is part of the earth. I would like to explain a few things, if only to clear my own mind.

So, the suffering I refer to that is taking place on large factory farms, is not an issue with small family farms. The animals that live alongside communities that have a completely loving environment are well taken care of. I could go much deeper, but I will leave it at that. Just visit a family farm, or better yet work on a farm and see for yourself.

Now to address the idea of vegan being non-mainstream. You are correct, not many even know what being vegan means, but it is an idea that has already been conceived by someone other than yourself. It has a formula, a pattern to follow that is already set up, which most vegan beginners will follow. That is fine, but it doesn't address your own personal health, what works for your body. I was trying to poke at that idea, and it has nothing to do with animal suffering. What nutrients are essential for your body? Ask yourself that question, and you may not know because the path that you have followed up until this point may have unintentionally created ill health by not following what our body knows as intuition. We have lost this feeling as domesticated humans.

I am not about to tell someone what they do to their body is right or wrong, I only intend to provoke question. When we see these documentaries, they are filled with opinion and belief, that of someone else. Many are thought provoking and truly amazing, as are the videos that you suggest watching. Yet, they seem to only perpetuate an idea that there is a singular view, one that you should believe. They are trying to convince you of something. We all can relate to the suffering of animals, and the way that it makes us feel to see these horrific acts. Not good. This is the shock factor that immediately makes us susceptible to drop everything and make a radical shift. We may not interact more deeply with the question of whether eating animal products is "right" or not. Who are we to judge? Our own nutrition protocol is nothing that is known. "Scientific" research only goes into a fraction of what we know about body functioning. We can look at biased scientific studies and think one way or another, but there is always an underlying factor that can completely shift that study. Again, I am not trying to convince anything or anyone, only offer a deeper understanding of what it is that I believe.

On my shift to a non-vegan lifestyle. I was vegan for over four years, and completely raw for almost a year. The changes in my body and the nutrition it needs have been partly dependent on the fact that I am a fairly hard working athlete. So in this respect, I may have different nutritional needs, also my body is individual in its needs. Someone that may be perfect for the vegan diet, would be someone who is already in very good health, has no issues with inner terrain (bacteria), and can process vitamins and minerals at the optimal level. Many of us living in the polluted world that we have today have compromised terrain, and do not take in the optimum vitamin and mineral amounts. The reason to attain optimum nutrition is ultimately a spiritual practice, for myself. I find that when my body is functioning properly, I am much more aware of my own consciousness and can literally see more clearly. So, with that said, I had a problem with my inner terrain that I was unable to "cure" with a vegan diet. The Raw milk and other dairy products that I consume are completely organic (which doesn't mean much anyway) and obtained from farms with a high level of integrity. I would like to take a step further an go visit the farm that I currently get my dairy from, but haven't seen it yet. In the past I have been on farms where they raise their own goats and cows, and have fresh milk that has been loved to the highest level. And what I can say from the experience of consuming raw milk products is that I have completely reworked my inner terrain and now have the energy to function at the levels I desire. Not selfish in my opinion, since the energy I have goes into projects that I hope to inspire our community with.
As for the specific nutrients, if you call beneficial bacteria nutrients, that is one aspect. This bacteria is completely different from the bacterias that we use toculture vegetable products, and even though they are amazing, the results don't work as quickly as that of dairy. I saw that obtaining immediate health results was more important to me than staying fixed with a dogmatic (my own dogma) view of what I thought I needed. If you want more insight, please ask, I could go on forever. Thank you for listening to my insights and experiences.

alchemygoddess@gmail.com

What a lovely post, Alchemy Goddess !

As a child, my family had friends who ran a small family dairy farm, which I visited many times! Fond memories.. farm kids grow up very much "grounded" in ways that city kids generally are not .. the farm kid has gone through the drama of emotional bonding with an animal who is then taken as food in its time; learning and adjusting to this aspect of nature is a very valuable experience.
My friends' farm had none of the horrific aspects of factory farms, which are imho one of the leading causes of multiplicitous "systems breakdown" threats against biodiversity; even to the point of imperiling all "higher life forms" on the planet.

Factory farming of vegetables creates significant toxic runoff; offers as "food" to humans.. a very different and much less nutritious "product" than does organic farmed foods - locally grown foods add a whole additional benefit in the lack of transportation energy required .. and of course, can be well integrated with animal husbandry, in "time honored" fashion, where animals are a valued and necessary part of farm life.

Factory farming of animals takes the input of the vegetable factory farming, and then builds in some significant fraction of the horror that the vegan shock & awe films show .. In my alternative healing practice, I once had a client who had worked for the nation's largest chicken factory farms .. he was systemically poisoned by many toxic chemicals used in the processing.
I have not studied any comparison tests of the nutritive value of factory farmed vs family farmed animal proteins, but my intuition is that there will be quite a disparity, PLUS of course the difference of animals being treated with care vs. the factory farm hells.

I need to study your clear and gentle way of elucidating the programmatical aspect of vegan indoctrination .. it is quite true that the whole package is very well-plotted out as what is referred to in the "persuasion business" as a psy-op .. a psychological manipulation .. emotional shock followed up with relentless rhetoric... and a militancy directed against anyone who speaks up with a difference of opinion.

It is also interesting to hear your "my karma ran over my dogma" story about your attempt at a vegan diet.

On a family farm .. of course ALL milk is very fresh raw milk .. which has a very different digestibility than does the homogenized/pasteruized stuff put out by "conventional" factory farms.. if you take a wild fancy to visiting your favorite dairy farm, I'd love to meet & chat while driving there if you're in the company-for-roadtrip mood.

You also allude to a point known to many in the alternative health fields, which is that each of us is a unique individual, including our dietary needs/wants/responses, etc.

In TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) and Ayur Veda (ancient healing system of India) meats, dairy, and ALL foods are "medicine" (as Hippocrates is quoted as saying "let thy food be thy medicine") Chinese medicine has a saying "all disease enters by the mouth" ... so in cultures which have not been divorced from traditional wisdom .. animal proteins are "medicine" .. and depending on the individual (all systems of healing with any basis in reality must be capable of veiwing the individual as unique --- rather than some "statistical average") ... "Factory Medicine" is as terrible a thing as factory farming in it's similarly chemicalized assembly line approach to human health.

One of my major healing disciplines is homeopathy; the founder of homeopathy had been quite a scholar of the vitalist school of thought which has been historically passed from ancient Egypt to Pythagorian Greece ... one of the fundamental statements in the original writing on homeopathy is that
"in health, a spirit-like force 'enlivens' an individual; the rational spirit is free to use the self as an instrument to achieve the higher purpose of existence"
which alludes to the fact that it is the healer's "sacred" duty to facilitate health, thus assisting/enabling the individual to pursue life as "spirit having human experience."

Alchemy Goddess:
" If you want more insight, please ask, I could go on forever. Thank you for listening to my insights and experiences."
--

pray continue...

warm wishes,
david hartley 510.859.4050  
www.holistiq.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer

You, like Eureka, have posed some very constructive questions. Thank you. Yes, I have worked on a ‘farm’- GentleBarn, Sanctuaries- GentleWorld, swam with hundreds of dolphins, whales, turtles, and fish- Hawai’i Wildlife Fund, and been an educator in many varying venues. The animals on the farm that I worked at were never milked unless severe mastitis was prevalent and then only to alleviate the suffering of the cows. We spent copious amounts of time lavishing them with human affection (many of them came from extremely abusive pasts) and nourishing them. Although they came to us in grief, dismay, and with an understandable severe aversion to humans, they would all eventually melt to their natural inclination for comfort, affection, and play.
Although family farms are docile in their treatment, especially when compared to factory farms, the animals are still none-the-less captives, and enslaved. Blacks in the days of human slavery in America were often used for wet nursing, breeding, their children sold and prostituted, and of course, for hard labor. Harriett Tubman once said, "I could have freed many more slaves if only I could convince them that they were slaves." The slaves had become complacent about their environment. It is a natural tendency for children to acclimate to their environment. They knew of no other reality than being treated as chattel. The non-human people on your farm are under the same delusion. Once you have seen what a cow who has not been used as a commodity is like, THEN you will know the spirit that truly resides in those who we recognize as SENTIENT. If you could have experienced the difference in fish personalities between swimming with a spear gun with an intention to use it and then swimming without (as I have on both counts), then you too could begin to recognize that there is a connection that awaits all human beings with our sentient brothers and sisters that is beyond our willingness to regard them as a mechanism for our own profit. Their true value to us is not as commodities but as Teachers.

“What nutrients are essential for your body?”

I am a certified nutritionist and counsel people regularly on their diet. Every nutrient that the body needs is wholesomely supplied in a plant based diet. I have been advised by Dr. Michael Klapper, Dr. Michael Gregor, and Dr. John McDougall personally. I have read the works of Dr. T. Colin Cambell, (Who by the way, began his work by trying to provide MORE PROTEIN to underprivileged youth. In the midst of his work he began to find evidence that the protein surplus in developed countries was the leading factor in many of the diseases plaguing the ‘privileged’. {The most prevalent promoter of cancer btw, is cassein, the protein in cows milk.} During this study he decided to go vegan. He remains so today) and am consistently counseled by Nutritionist Steve Blake, my friend and neighbor who has written several books including college text books on nutrition. They all agree; There is no nutrient in the mammary secretions or flesh of non-human animals that surpasses the nutritional composition of a wide variety, whole foods, plant based diet. In the realm of psychology it is not uncommon for those who have acclimated to a specific diet from a young age to revert back to it as a comfort mechanism. Substance abusers follow nearly identical behavior patterns. You live in Kilauea. Go to Kona Naturals or Abundant Life and look for Taro Dream. It is made by my friends Noeau and Pilikalama who live in Waimea (who are not vegans) It has natural flora and is some of the best vegan yogurt I have yet to experience. I’m sure that there will be plenty of other options for probiotics as well. My suspicion is that once you have balanced your terrain and assuaged your discomfort with non-conformity you will attain an ever higher resolve for your contributions to your world. I wish for you much happiness and the joy of non-exploitative healing.

Maluhia ia Oe

Welcome to the party! A few points which you make that I would like to respond to...
First your query...
"As long as we are eating foods that bring us to our purpose, what else is there?"

Through my commitment to harmlessness, first through my diet and then to everything else that i can include, I have found that my Purpose is to explore and share the realms of Connection that are available to human consciousness via this Sacrament of Reverence for Sentient Life. Now that I have walked these footsteps for well over a decade I vividly recognize many of the fallacies that I used to cling to and others still do. One in particular that I have alluded to earlier in this string is the self delusion behind exploitation. A great book on this is called The Dreaded Comparison by Marjorie Spiegel. In it she details the similarities that human attitudes have displayed in the enslavement of other humans and our modern day enslavement of non-human animals. One of the most stark examples is the denigrating attitudes that we have taken upon those whom we oppress.
Blacks in the slave trading south had names like 'spook', 'goon', 'jiggaboo', and of course, 'nigger'. All of them were used pejoratively. Today we use the word 'animal' pejoratively in reference to other humans as well as non-human sentience in general. We use the same words to denigrate people that we use to classify non-humans. We call someone 'chicken' when they are afraid, or 'pig' when they are sloppy or ravenous, an 'ass' when they are stubborn or fixed in their position. I could go on and on. Denigrating those who we seek to oppress supports the illusion that our lives are somehow worthy of their suffering, but when we stop to sincerely think about our rationale we can readily see the fallacy behind it. For example; Albert Einstein, Mohandas Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Peace Pilgrim, and Julia Butterfly Hill have all been incredibly intelligent and benevolent members of our society. Does this entitle them to dine on sacrificial members of humanity? Perhaps a child who has been torn from its mother at birth? What a fine and fitting delicacy to place before those who so utterly deserve the 'best'. When viewed from this perspective the whole notion seems not only illogical, its downright macabre. My hunch is that you, as a mother of two beautiful daughters, can empathize. But taking this same premise and applying it to our own culture is a very deep and unsettling reality for many. And many do choose to either run from such clarity or berate and denigrate those who would speak such stark Truth. In the foreward to 'The Dreaded Comparrison' which is written by Alice Walker the author of 'The Color Purple' she states, "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men."

Since I have never heard of a single case of human exception to our biological design to thrive exclusively on vegetation, I can't help but feel skeptical about your claim that,

"I felt I was spending too much time in the ethers and was lacking some of the grounding energy I received from animal protein. This is a bio-individual issue totally. What works for me probably wouldn't work for anybody else."

I know the syndrome of being in the 'ethers'. I have witnessed it in others and experienced it first hand. What I must say about such conditions is A) Being in the ethers has its applications. It can be a great way to attain greater clarity for personal directives. WHERE and WHEN you explore this can be critical however B) It can be inappropriate for certain environments such as raising children in a society that does not value having people in their presence in such states, and C) Grounding can be easily achieved via tubers, grains, nuts, seeds, and other high density, cruelty free food sources.

By the way, I'm glad to read that you 'communicate' with (non-human) animals. Of course I believe you. What I don't know is if you mean to say that you are allowing yourself to tune in to their utterances and gestures for consistent intent or if you are telling them to 'sit'. I will opt to err on the side of interpreting them accurately. I'm sure that if you were to listen to them even more closely you would hear them say what Washoe said to his 'trainers' when they taught him sign language. In unequivical terms Washoe spoke for all exploited and oppressed Earthlings when from the confines of his cage he formed his first sentence. It was, "LET ME OUT".

Although it's true that death seems to be an implicit part of life, this should not imply that murdering is an acceptable part of life too. Especially when human consciousness has begun to bloom with the awareness that neither our health nor our happiness are dependent upon anyone else's suffering or death. I'm hoping that some of these insights will find their way into your counseling sessions.

Thank you for encouraging me to "Live by MY truth". For me, living by my truth means not only exemplifying it in my actions but speaking or writing it when the opportunity arises.

Seize the Day Alex,
Go Vegan!

Dude, no doubt you live your truth, I think I could say that of everyone I've encountered so far on this sight, it's pretty great.
So, to respond- enslavement is one thing, being cared for is another. Granted, I eat, and egg sometimes, maybe some sushi, I'm no raging burger eating fiend. Which, btw, I think the amount of beef in this country contributes to herd mentality, no?
Anyway, Small family farms, the ones I know of, and the people I know who raise animals for slaughter take really good care of them. They have a quality of life. They are cared for. I saw the issue of pets and children mentioned before- they are cared for. No, I don't anyone to eat my kids, although ask me another day I may have a different answer! No, I'm kidding, anyway, my point is that a humane or conscious death death is one moment in a life that has hopefully been content in the cases of which I speak. Natural death takes a long freakin time, have you ever seen it? heavy. And animals are blessed with a lack of ego, so they lose their body, but their spirit continues.

On the issue of murder, totally not a good thing, I think we can agree on that. I had to put my cat down once, it was the hardest thing ever, but he followed me home, anyway, happy to be walking again.

On the issue of communicating with animals, I mean, I can't justify any of that to anybody, there is a level of faith involved, I can just say that I see what I see, feel what I feel, and hear what I hear. I still have some pets with me that I've lost, and they help out. The thing with animals is that they are such joyful creatures. Many are more powerful than they get credit for, same with children. Not always, of course, and I can't speak for every chicken, or what ever, but they have a greater capability of living in the moment, and that pure state of bliss and oneness that I know I strive for. I mean, my cat is sitting here purring for no reason other than pure joy of isness. this doesn't include factory farms, of course, which are horror shows.

And the ethers are lovely, I still go there! It just doesn't get the house clean, lunches packed, emails returned and what-have-you from up there! One day, I'll live in a cave on the side of a mountain and meditate all day, but until then, I have poop to clean up and dirty dishes! I f you come do my dishes, and clean up all this poo I'll go vegan ok? lol! I know how to do vegan right, it's just an individual thing, I really think that. I do know cases of vegans incorporating fish oil or an egg here and there and having improved health. I also know cases of going raw vegan, and that being the answer for some people. I just think it's interesting, no one knows our own bodies better than ourselves. These are conclusions, one ultimately needs to come to on one's own.

I deem this day seized, now I go to bed!

I will be thinking of the ways I am enslaved, and meditating upon that-

Love and blessings to all!
Alex

>I happen to have just had some free time land in my lap and I am enjoying this conversation. First item...

>>“the people I know who raise animals for slaughter take really good care of them.”

>As I mentioned earlier, humanity has become so ingrained in the culture of oppression that it has become difficult for many to conceive of the duality of animal exploitation.

d: this is rhetoric, it relies on veganISM doctrine, without which it is plain silly. Humanity and animals have evolved in spiritual partnership for 100,000 years. more.

>Conveniently placing non-humans in a separate category from humans does not justify murder,

d: oops, that read-your-dictionary error again

>no matter how ‘well’ the victims

d: oops, family farm animals treated with love and care can be called victim only within the fixed veganISM doctrine

>are 'taken care of.' Perhaps I’m beating a dead… (did you think I was going to write ‘horse’? This is another example of how our language perpetuates cruelty) intellect here.

d: no, this is another example of the tired straw man argument .. set 'em up, knock 'em down, wow, aren't we clever.

>Honestly, I really appreciate your willingness to engage in this conversation and be frank with all of us.

d: me too ! Thanks Alex, you rock :-)

>I’m doing my best to return the sentiment. As much as you would not want anyone to raise your children for slaughter

d: what is it with you guys? you are so lost in your veganISM doctrine that you fail to see how ridiculous this is to people just a wee bit more toward the mainstream. My children are humans. Animals are animals. check your dictionary if you get confused.

>neither do cows, pigs, chickens, or anyone else.

d: anthropomorphISM..

>This seems to be a very difficult concept for humans to groc.

d: spelling police: grok. it is grok, did you read the book?

>If we can understand why a mother screams and rages when her children are taken
from her why is it so difficult to understand why non-human mothers do the same for their children?

d: seriously, get out your dictionary. read human. read animal. note lack of "idem" Not at all the same,
not even similar in many ways, you (I mean YOU) veganISM-ists here are conflating human & animal.
Others of us a wee bit closer to the mainstream have some distinctions between the two.
It is not likely that people will be confused by your attempt at reinterpreting the English language here.

>Has human culture become so steeped in the culture of cruelty that we are just incapable
of FEEELING the torment that we put other life forms through with our unquestioned behavior?

d: Well, clearly the corporate culture has. Maybe your efforts would be better spent working with other slightly closer to mainstream evolving humans toward the dismantling of factory farming .. than with sharpening the knives of your rhetoric and attempting to inflict mental cruelty on people who (here anyhow) basically KNOW BETTER than to fall for manipulative psychobabble ?
Really! think of it~! You could forge alliances instead of alientating folks. Please suggest this to your superiors at veganISM central office.

>I choose to believe not. I believe that somewhere within every single beating human heart there is a sense of connection and empathy for those who suffer at our hands.

d: I choose not to offer my beating human heart into the grasp of veganISM hands which would attempt to wring it to suit their fringe agenda.

>Whether by commission or omission we humans are still challenged to see the suffering and havoc that we bring not only to those whom we share this beautiful world with, but our selves, our friends, our family’s and our progeny as well.

d: YES.

>Until humanity has awoken to the sensibility of expanding its circles of compassion to include those who we share existence with, we will not know the heights of Peace that await us and our loved ones.

d: On the day during which veganISM-ists expand their circle of compassion to include their fellow humans with some fraction of the fervor in which they exhort veganISM doctrine .. on that day will vegans know great and lasting peace & connection with their fellow humans.

>On the day that we do embody such sensitivity and warmth however, the world will know a more vivid definition of the word ‘Love’ than ever before. When we’ve been there ten thousand years bright shining as the Sun. We’ll have no less days to sing God’s praise than when we first begun. Amazing Grace. Whew, that felt good. OK I’ll come down off of my pew now and where were we? Oh yes, next comment…

d: "Come down off your throne, and leave your body alone. Somebody must change. You are the reason I've been waiting so long. Somebody holds the key." Only you can free yourself from the blindness of veganISM. "Rehumanize yourself"

>>I do know cases of vegans incorporating fish oil or an egg here and there and having improved health.

>Comments like this provide fodder for misinformation.

d: sure, as viewed from the fixed and narrow focus of veganISM .. to the rest of the world veganism appears to be a disinformational cult when it appears in prosyletizations and coercive communication.

>There are many factors involved in health far beyond diet.

d: many factors, yes, but none of such prime import. - hey. I thought you were urgently & critically concerned with diet.

>As I mentioned earlier in this string,

d: thread.

>one of them is called ‘comfort regression’ whereby people (those addicted to chemicals included) will often revert to old familiar comforts when the new lifestyle adjustment they are trying (like health or expanded compassion) becomes uncomfortable.

d: aha, the old "it's all in your mind" explanation. I think not. I think that people try vegan diets, and if/when they fail to thrive on them, they add some animal protein and regain their vigor. If y'all could get off the veganISM and just get right with watching your OWN diet & letting others watch theirs, I think everyone would be a lot better off.
Sadly (VERY SADLY) the mindtrap of the doctrine has you so tightly wrapped that you can't seem to see the 80% value to everything vegan execpt the ISM .. that an 80% vegetarian diet represents, instead you wanna bust balls over the 20%.
Self Defeating.

> [Anytime we explore a change in the things we put in our body (or mind) there is an acclimation period to go through. During this time we can often feel discomfort and be tempted to regress from our aspirations.

d: maybe you. If you'll stop pretending to be an expert you might start getting a feel for what some of the other readers are thinking when they read your stuff.

> Projecting in our minds that the missing ingredient is the old vice that we once patronized many will resort to that substance. The mind, being a very powerful tool, then engages the placebo effect and releases hormones that provide the comfort that the aspiring addict seeks] Then they say, “Oh, I feel much better now”, and then those who do not have the discretion to question the bigger reality say,

d: psychobabble

>“How ‘bout that. It seems that fish oil and eggs is good for you after all”.

d: YES ! you're catching on ~!

>These are just more examples of the myopic thinking that has muddled humanity into the chaotic mess that we are now in.

d: yeppers, it is a valuable demonstration you are providing of muddled humanity struggling under the weight of veganISM, and YES again, this type of factionalISM is mmm... messy.

>I do look forward to the day that all of this is behind us and we can get on with the business of hangin’ out in the ethers.

d: I've given up my addiction to ether

>Meantime, thanks for playing.

d: no worries, I just needed to lower my expectations..

warm wishes,
david hartley 510.859.4050  
www.holistiq.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer

the impression that I get from you is that you are actually very close to being vegan but there is something there that really frightens you. Maybe fear of social rejection or some other inner conflict. Whatever it is this topic has really pushed a button for you. I'm glad that you are having fun with all of this and taking the time to absorb these thoughts. You may just make the move yet. I just want you to know that I'm routing for you and do let me know if there is any way that I can help when you do decide to drop your fears and "just do it".

Happy Blogging and thanks for the spell checking,

>The one question that has been mostly avoided throughout this discussion is "Why is it okay for you to enslave and eat animals"?

d: The reason this is a NON-question is that it is predicated upon erroneous assmuptions of veganISM doctrine.
Family farms in which loving animal husbandry is practiced have been discussed in some detail;
the value of the labor of the willing farm animal is unquestionable on such sustainable small farms;
eating the meat of the animal is part of normal practice, has been for 100's of 1000's of years.
The fact that you do not think it is "okay" is clear.
What is unclear is why anyone should particularly CARE what you think, especially since you go to such astounding lengths to post ONLY ludirous veganISM mental masturbatory rhetoric.

>There have been no quality answers to that question.

d: Refer to the answer above and previous writing in this thread on family farms; if you'd like an even higher qualtiy answer, ask a quality question! As you persist in posing ludicrous rherotical questions, it is not possible to have a meaningful dialogue. Should someone be asking you "how old were you when you quit screwing the pooch?"

>As far I can tell no one has watched the videos (beyond Eureka watching the beginning of Earthlings) that I presented with this topic, that I asked to be a prerequisite to the actual discussion.

d: The videos you posted are KNOWN sources of false veganISM doctrine, and constitue a psychic/emotional attack.
Why should anyone purposefully subject themselves to such?
If anyone wants to see a horror flick there are PLENTY of them on myriad topics
Sounds like you need a job at veganISM high school, where you can hand out assigments and chide people for not doing the homework you assigned. You DO realize that this website & it's discussion areas are largely college age + / adult venues?

>There has been a lot of irrational and childish commentary,

d:AnthropomorphISM + veganISM is about as irrational and childish as it gets:
"oh, how COULD you.. you're frying up Bugs Bunny for dinner"

>again mostly avoiding the actual issue of the enslavement

d: oops: easily avoidable dictionary problem! get our your dictionary and read "slave"

>and killing of species other than our own.

d: good, at least you're not rattling on about cannabilistic baby consumption again,
and, of course, I'm sure you'd agree that killing species other than our own prior to eating them is far preferable than not doing so?

>The fact is, there is no valid justification for the enslavement and murder of other animals.

d: Dude, there is no jusifcation for your perversion & murder of the English language !
"When I use a word” Humpty Dumpty said, "...it means just what I choose it to mean-neither more nor less." (Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures)
Your Alice in Wonderland (il)logic is pervasive and persistent..
the fact is that you are an endless fountain of redundantly repetitive ridiculous rhetoric
erroneously phrased as if it made any sense outside of your own very fringe veganISM doctrine.

>Some of you may react to that statement as an "ism", but in reality it is truth.

d: Get ahold of yourself, son ... "in reality" .. truth is manifold, and no one...
perhaps least of all: someone deeply lost in the grasp of a cultish doctrine
has any necessarily useful truth.
You claim to be expounding "truth" yet I am seeing merely a relentless PROPAGANDA campaign.
The father of modern propaganda Nazi, leader Joseph Goebbels said:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
You seem to be convinced of Goebbels statement; in any case every bit that you have posted
REEKS of a pre-manufactured propagand campaign, and you have YET to take part in any dialogue
(as in, use the standard English language definitions, check your Alice in Wonderland logic at the door)

>There are no legitimate scientific health/dietary reasons,

d: That is a lie.

>there are no ecological reasons and there are certainly no moral reasons.

d: the sustainable ecological practice of a small / family farm has been time-tested for many generations;
the morality which I see as problematical in this discussion is the intensively and well thought out campaign of propaganda lies.
Attempted psychological manipulaton is not dialogue. Stop it already.

>The truth remains that unnecessarily killing other sentient beings is wrong,

d: the truth remains that you have a fixed cultish veganISM propaganda campaign running; thus anything which you utter which MIGHT otherwise have even some tiny shred of truth is extremely suspect.

>something that many people who think they have come to some non-dualist "wisdom" often reject, believing they have a "higher" understanding of reality.

d: well, if you're asking me to help you get deprogrammed, I can probably help you. Here, try a little tea with some honey, and we'll talk about it.

>The great deception, that is in fact impeding the evolution and progress of mankind, is that there are no superior principles (namely nonviolence) or truths in our world, "everyone has their own truth" & "to each their own".

d: Whatever. YOUR great deception consists of a persistant and pervasive propaganda campaign, replete with skewing dictionary definitions to suit your manipulative writings.

>Unnecessary and uncaring violence is ALWAYS "justified" by deception,

d: ALWAYS is always suspect, and this statement is additional plain stupid; unnecessary and uncaring violence is done daily in a thousand ways without any recourse to deception.

>be that deception as to why humans need meat,

d: sorry ? Certainly not all humans need meat. It is a proven fact, however that eating meat is a fabulous cure for the otherwise incurable mental aberration of vegan cultism.. why in this thread alone, we may refer to roughly 40% of the population (of this thread) being CURED of vegan cultism by taking animal protein. Sit down here for a sec, have some of this tea...

>or why we need to bomb the people of Iraq and Afghanistan (and Vietnam, etc. going back century by century).

d: I don't know why you need to bomb anyone... but you certainly show no signs of slowing down with your rhetoric carpet bombing..

>I expand on this in the following essay:
http://colindonoghue.wordpress.con/2008/10/16/eating-the-apple/

d: I'll pass for now, but thanks, I'm sure.

>The reason I share films like Earthlings and Peaceable Kingdom is because that is REALITY,

d: the reason you attempt to subject people to films like Earthlings and Peaceable Kingdom is because they are the SHOCK & AWE desert storm bombing of people's consciousness; psychic violence as the thin ege of the wedge of indoctrination into cultish veganISM. Whatever REAL abuse befalls animals during your filming is unforgiveable. Using it the way that you do is equally unforgiveable. Instead of wasting your time harassing evolving individauls who
a) have low tolerance for cults
b) dislike being chided for not watching the movie homework
c) have the ability so see thru your doctrine, and of course pity you, but are helpless to save you from it (unless you want to sit down & have a nice cup of tea with some honey.. & we can talk about your problems..)
Seriously: re-craft your campaign. Smooth it out a bit, so the jagged edges of the propagand aren't QUITE so obvious.
THEN: Take it where it'll do some good- and that is where you may have some effect on FACTORY FARMING.
Everyone here is likely already aware of the horrors of factory farming.
Everyone here is surely already aware that no one but cultish veganISM doctrinarians claim that loving family farms are anything other than highly commendable sustainable agriculture.

>which can wake one up from a dream-deception that they are sleeping in.

d: Speaking of dream deception.. have a little of this tea .. it'll help you !

>So rather than letting the slave master keep his slaves,

d: strike that comment ---- anthropomorphISM

>let the bombs drop on the children and let the cows and pigs be tortured and killed,

d: carpet bombing is defintely hard on children, cows, pigs, etc.
this cultish veganISM carpet bombing rhetoric is only psychologically damaging, provided that people receive the antidote in time (won't you just have a little of this tea...)

>we can actually take a stand for truth,

d: I'm not at all convinced that you can. Certainly you seem not to have a grasp of the relativity of truth, definitely-- you are in the grasp of a delusion which prevents you from accessing the truth that non veganISM uncultists know.

>the scientific method, freedom and compassion. We can reject a 1984 reality where supposedly intelligent beings cant muster up basic compassion for other creatures, and instead eat their prepared animals flesh while sitting around a fire with there other supposedly intelligent and more evolved humans talking about "evolution" and 2012, while in the supposedly inferior animal world, indiscriminate violence and cruelty are hardly found at all.

d: you are so freakin out of touch with reality it is not even funny (ok, a little but funny) but SAD!
No wonder you were such easy meat for the veganISM cult machine.
Here's your movie assignment: go to youtube, find and watch 10 videos on wild animals killing other wild animals.
We evolved humans prefer to kill animals in humane and cruelty-free fashion, with no indiscriminate violence in the mix.

>The only legitimate concern in favor of humans being carnivores is that it's necessary for their health.

d: Bullshit. Free range grass fed family farmed beef is YUMMY ! I mean it is juicy good :-)

>This is what many people assume, it's what I used to assume. Then I became educated

d: HAhaha .. you "became educated" .. You are a freakin' drive by shooting victim of the cultish veganISM propaganda machine.
(the probably got their hooks into you while you were suffering from animal protein deficiency.)

>to the facts and now I know that's not true in any way. (Read "The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted" by T. Colin Campbell, PhD, et al, for starters if you actually want to educate yourself on the health facet). Rationalize all you want, but when you actually have to account for your participation in the massive cruelty and mass-murder of other feeling beings, what is your defense?

d: Dude, you are participating in the massive cruelty and mass-murder of humans every day in which you waste your effin' time harping on with the cultish veganISM machine instead of doing something actually useful like activism against corporate rule, and the multiple wars on humanity which are daily carried out in its name.

>I've heard nothing other than things like "it's my choice" and "I think I felt better".

d: Try this one: It is just none of your effin' business.

>If karma ends up being a part of our reality (as many people of different faiths along with many secularists, etc. believe it is), and all you have to argue is what has presented here so far, I doubt there will be much mercy given to you , just as you have shown no mercy to the animals.

d: Great now the runnerboy for the veganISM movie psychogical attack machine is a holy man. What next.

>The Golden Rule remember?

d: he who has the gold, rules .. yah, we see it in action every day .. and SOMEday when you get your head outta your navel perhaps you can join the mainstream of evolving humans who are concerned with ending FACTORY FARMING and who won't even mind that you are stuffed so full of judgment that it reeks out of every sentence you post. C'mon sit down, have a cup of tea, and we'll work something out.

>Intelligence that ignores basic truths ends up being delusional and irrational.

d: damn. out of the mouths of babes.. Son, lets sit with this a minute.
'kay that's long enough. So, what I hear you saying is that the delusion and irrationality of cults (in general) is not necessarily based in their lack of intelligence, but is in their ignoring of basic truths. Ok, but then by "basic truths" we're talking about the stuff which the (for instance veganISM) cult has ignored ? Like using common English language instead of Alice in Wonderland anthropomorphism ? But what about the fact that the cultish veganISM rhertoric army studiously uses psy-op propaganda tactics? Doesn't that go way beyond the pale in terms of attributing their delusion and irrationalitly to mere ignorance of basic truths ?!

>If we are all trying to EVOLVE here, what does that imply?

d: FIRST requirment: Get over the egotistic self infatuation. You have an opinion, state it as so.
Dialogue in any even slightly "evolved" venue is going to require you to GET THE eff off of the constant propaganda.
Act like a thinking and feeling human being rather than a machine programmed to spit out cultish veganISM doctrine.

>It means we are are evolving from a lesser to a higher state. And what is lesser and what is higher?

d: IF you have any clue THEN you are a complete hypocrite, as propagandizing is diametrically antithetical to evolution.
I will, therefore, continue to try to pretend you are merely programmed & so clueless.

>Unnecessary violence and oppression is lesser.

d: Psy-op propaganda collapses this distinction nicely, by bridging the two..

>Compassion and freedom is higher. Can we agree on that?

WORD ! I think we may be able to use you in our anti FACTORY FARM campaigns .. have a seat.. try some of this tea?

>Evolution necessitates judgment,

d: danger will robinson .. don't go off half-cocked..

>otherwise there can be no progress, there would be nothing to progress from,
.... (.......) where's the beef ?

>just a static non-dualist state lacking any principle or meaning.

d: d'ya mean to tell me that without a fixation on judgment and progress there would only be nirvana?
that's pretty deep.

>Why do we prefer sustainability over ecological destruction? Because that causes less harm, because it is more sane.

d: why do I feel like this is a rope-a-dope move ..

>That is the same reasoning for adopting a vegan diet.

d: ah.. of course.. another little rhetoric trick. Dude, you need new speech writers, and I've got just the guys, we'll whip up a psy-op campaign that'll fry the brains of those FACTORY FARM buying supersizers right in their skulls .. here , sit down & have a cup of tea..

>I hope some of you will open your minds to these fundamentals and think twice before you participate in unnecessary violence, oppression and exploitation, that is bad for you, animals and our ecosystem.

d: Son, you are preachin' to the choir. Your message needs a little polishing though, as it pretty much attacks around 90% of the people who might otherwise be your allies in working against FACTORY FARMS, which are the undeniable source of the sort of problems which have driving you over the edge and into the clutches of the cultish veganISM machine.

>And please don't leave any more comments until you have actually watched the videos! I created this discussion thread for commentary on the content of those videos, if you refuse to see what the reality is then how can you have an educated opinion on it? Perhaps you need a cartoon to start with? http://matrix.com/

d: get a grip.

d: Peace

warm wishes,
david hartley 510.859.4050  
www.holistiq.com
I.T. support: www.cafegratitude.com
co-founder: www.GratefulMindandBody.com
web developer