Shamanry vs Shamanism

I think I read about it in multiple sources, Holger Kalwiets book Shamans healers and medicine being the primary. Theres a whole chapter in there dedicated to similar tribes. I think tribes tend to be put off by the spirit world because thats their cultural relationship dynamic to it, which can be really facilitated by a bad shaman too. A co-dependent relationship can form between shamans and their community both human and other than human. Power dynamics based on control and fear violence and dominance are very common in tribal cultures as well as in hierarchical systems. I think there are animist societies that work in both high synergy and low synergy social dynamics. Thats the way it can go in any community honestly.

Yeah I think the way they choose to relate to the sickness and what is dangerous and what is not dangerous, what protection is and what they need protection from ect... is all part of the development of a relational ontology> I think of it like this.... You can develop a highly synergistic relational dynamic or a lazy, unconscious, ignorant and superstitious and even violent low synergistic relational dynamic.

I have met some really amazing entheogen workers in my days that have gained some serious wisdom, and these are white folks generally, and they have seen past the drama and the conflict the human ego creates in spirits sacred theater or life and they dont have fear like in some low synergy conflict based animist systems have. SA meztiso shamanry is kinda low synergy, it can be violent, manipulative and conflict based and predatory ( ask the women) and there are a lot of things that have contributed to that low synergy relational dynamic. Tourism now and in the past colonialism and slavery and the rubber trade.
and yeah i think in those low synergy relational dynamics the way a shaman relates can keep him in business. As long as you make it so the shaman is special and exclusive then the more you disempower people from discovering and nurturing their ownability to be that person.

the role of "shaman" in societies that have an equivalent reinforces the dis-empowerment of people not being to find it through their own relationship with earth sky and spirit not to mention their own human community.

Lets say some one had real raw natural talent in that arena and they where in a animist community, this person could exploit the fact he had this gift or he could use that gift to nurture the inherent quality he has in others. Its only scary and has power over you, when you dont see it as a part of you... and goes for everything lol.

and yeah our mental health movement totally creates a lot of the illness it needs to treat. But thats another conversation completely and i dont want to get off topic.

Also I think its fine to use the term shaman in sticking with its original etymology, one who knows about being an animist. I think we need a movement in the west now that is very clear in its understanding of what this word means that encourages everyone to be one who knows about being an animist.

I know stephan... we dont argee on some important points, but hes a good man.

Well, I studied for 6 years to work with that medicine amoung others with a curandero... I also was a Mod for MANY years on the aya forum and I have to say I some what disagree with many of the common views on it these days.
I agree the world is magical, as magical as can be, what ayahausca is for though i think is a mystery, its for healing its for killing, its been worked with for all kinds of different purposes and intentions, so any specific asertation as to what its for seems to be erroneous.

"It seems to support my feeling that IF all the power is projected onto another, then this causes also a projection of fear, distrust."

NOW I AGREE WITH THIS WHOEL HEARTEDLY! this is a super common dynamic with people who are able ie people who are powerful, because thats all being powerful means being able.
What I have seen in ceremony is that people will unconciously put all their own energy into the healer to effect change, this is a fine dynamic if they know that this is what they are doing, but if they dont and the the healer, teacher, guru ect does know this at least on some level and thrives off the ignorece or profits froom this and controls that information then its an imbalance of power and will create mistrust as well as many other social ills int he relational dynamic... which is a shame because it doesnt need to happen like that.

I love this...

New Animism defined
New Animism:

"Arguably the proper label for the type of religion practiced among traditional indigenous people who employ shamans. Rather then being "shamanists" or adherents of "shamanism," these people may be usefully named "animists." While the term was coined by Edward Tylor ( a founder of the discipline of anthropology) to define the essence of religion as 'the belief in spirits" and has played a significant role in theories about the origins of religion, it is used here in a new way. The old theory of animism alleged that indigenous people and the earliest human ancestors had made a mistake in believing in spirits. The new theory, associated with Nurit Bird-David, Eduardo Viveiros de Castro, Signe Howell, and others, sees animism as a relational ontology- the recognition that the world is full of persons, only some of whom are human. In Irving Hallowell's terms, there are human persons and other-then-human-persons, including rock persons, tree persons, cloud persons, and perhaps "spirit persons."
Animist worldviews and lifeways make it necessary for there to be shamans because (1) humans are relatively weak and need to seek help ( in the form of knowledge, healing, or defense) from more powerful other-then-human-persons and (2) humans often offend other-then-human-persons and need mediators in order to restore respectful relationships. In this context, shamans may be defined as those persons trained and skilled at working for their community when it is necessary to seek help from or reconciliation with the wider community of life. In turn, as Graham Harvey has argued, animism makes shamans both possible and necessary because their roles are about dealing with the problems of the living world."

from:Graham Harvey and Robert J Wallis : Historical Dictionary of Shamanism

"I think your a bit down on 'the history of the Goddess'...? "

I am not I have studied it quite a bit, what I am down on is poor scholarship and make believe assumptions about our collective history. Which there has been a lot of.

""That shamans where originally women is also an insane speculation. "

lol, this is what i mean! Look at the clothes the ACTUAL shamans (ie., from where the original word comes from) of Siberia wear. They are dresses---feminine clothes pointing to an expropriation by the males over possible earlier forms of Goddess rituals."

not all cultures have the dress as being a strictly female article of clothing for one, two the Tungus people that your speaking of HAVE FEMALE SHAMANS! There where shamans before there where deities... ever read that line before? its an interesting Idea... and i would tend to agree with it. there is no evidence to support a goddess religion the predates the existence of shamans, world wide. once again we cannot talk about shamans and just use one culture as an example. if we even desire to use the word shaman at all we have to look at it as a global phenomena. and globally there is no strict sexual preference as to if there is a gender bias in the role.

"To really look into this is complex because it demands you understand images and how they have been subverted, and male rituals of bleeding, and reading between the lines etc etc.
You also have to be aware of the history of misogyny, and misothery (hatred and laothing and abuse of animals) and homophoobia, and fear of darkness and nature"

I am very aware of all of those things... reading between the lines can some times be quite literally imagining that there are words between the lines that are not really there too... back it up with more then opinions... thats all I am saying. but i dont want to debate here..

as far as UFOs go I dont know, I do NOT care for speculation and I have never seen a UFO, my grandfather did and he believed, but i think i am going to have to see it to believe it. Im a really show me sort of guy...

"Regardless of the soul deadness and violence the 'West' has done overs is technological prowess, we yet still have come to this place where 'we' CAN totally destroy all life on earth--or all humans for sure with the technology that is now avialable, so there HAS to be an intelligence that can understand how to use it--how to transform the negative use into positive, and this will include ex-ploration into consciousness"

I think we are moving away from the topic of this post.

"Now, question: How do we deeply understand and live WITH this dynamic whole?"

Well thats a great question, but probably a good idea to start that on another post so we can stay on topic here.

I have Moderated forums for MANY MANY years its really easy for us to get off topic and to get derailed.

I am all for how conversations naturally flow into other subjects as well but in forum communication is best if those split off into new topics. or else communication via internet forums becomes very difficult.

Thats an interesting Idea Pi... Not all shamans participate in the same philosophical world view as that however. Some cultures do not have a frame work for psyche or even mind so to speak and have an alternative and functional epistemology then the one that psychology prescribes too. I think though for those that work from a western model of psychology that can be very useful indeed. but I also feel that there is a tendency for over explanation within modern psychology that can take the magic and the mystery out of the work.

Shamanry in the west these days has reverted to nearly pure creative visualization practices with an emphasis on nature and tribal symbolism. And is used primarily as a psychotheraputic practice. in traditional animist societies this does not seem to be the case. Shamanry is the primary medical system.
There is a great story by a man who works with the harner foundation who went to tuva and they brought him a man who was dieing right in front of him to cure... great story!

my only fear with relating to shamanry from the point of view of modern psychology is that it can sort of spade or neuter it to make a base analogy.

once again though I do not wish to get to far off topic.
and this would be another great topic for another thread.

shaman just means one who knows remember. SO what is it you dont want to know? ; )

Some northern tundra tribes view the earth as male and the sun as female... so not all see it that way.

"Where it goes wrong, he claims, is when gods and goddesses are made to have human forms, and from there humans believe themselves to be superior, and a strong example of this is the Judean Christian male 'creator' who is said to give humans the right to subdue the earth, and disrespect of earth goes hand in hand with disrespect of women"

Thats interesting... the greeks had an earth goddess that took human form...

A lot of animists around the world had deity like beings who could transform or shape change into human form. it is argued in some pagan circles that there was no real anthropomorphism to being with but that all things have the ability to transform shape and that animals, gods ie natural forces or aspects of the cosmos including the earth, can take human shape for the ease of communicating with humans. the problem might occur that he points out when humans forget that they are just transforming or shape changing and that it doesnt mean humans are superior.

I would also point out that Trundell is himself participating in a bit of romanticism on indigenous peoples himself in that not all indigenous earth loving people have such nice relationships to women. There are quite a few ethnographic examples out there on the subject of misogynistic relationship dynamics in earth loving indigenous peoples. Which is ironic because trundell will also be one of the first people out there to call others out on the myth of the noble savage. but he actively participates in this myth by making such statements.

The reality is even indigneous people have high or low sysnergy relational dynamics.

interesting...