The Invisible Landscape:

I see your point but if we are to use the word with any specific definition then such broad sweeping meanings like "knower" which could just as easily apply to a scholar or mystic seems to just blend the definition in with so many other general terms for a spiritually guided or educated individual. Even Eliade thought that the term should be defined specifically although not limited to just Siberian šamán.

Mine is certainly not an erudite perspective I'm simply seeking the definition in the actual practices and not in a detached philosophical manner. I know that the same techniques can be used by many different disciplines as you say even scientist but the techniques I feel don't define the path. The path, to me, is defined by not only a practitioners immersion into pandimensional realms but also by harmonizing ones own will with the will of the mind of creation so as to create a harmonic resonance. That harmonic resonance is the healing energy. The practitioner in this way has the intention of getting out of the way in order to facilitate the flow of this life force energy, the primal substance. Herein lies the difference for me. Shamanic work is in the nature of this harmonic resonance. Like in Aikido were the focus is to tap into the Aiki of the universe in order to allow the harmonizing principle of the universe to flow through you. You stop moving your body with the intention of will and allow the Aiki to flow and move your body for you.

This Aiki is the self correcting and self ordering principle of the universe. That is why in Aikido when one allows the Aiki to flow through them in a conflict situation the energy will always move towards harmony and balance.

Unlike say enochian magick were the will of the practitioner is the central guiding force. Or as in hierarchal religions that are again manifestations of the human will or combinations of human will with various extra-terrestrial entities and pernicious influences.

Ideally in the model of Shamanism I'm suggesting...

( maybe this is just that really "my model" and I should certainly not be speaking for all shamanic practitioners )...

in order to stay earth centered one would only involve themselves energetically with ultra-terrestrials and the primal substance. I think that, at least, is just wise advise as the alternative typically leads to some very high weirdness indeed.

It was taught to me as "staying behind the medicine". "Don't get out in front of the medicine" it means to keep your ego and mental will out of the way and allow the intrinsic harmonizing principle of the source mind of creation to move the energy where it needs to go.

It's just that human consciousness has no possible way of ever calculating the infinite potentials and unlimited number of variables in any given situation. The only way is to open ones self up to be guided by the mind of the primal substance the infinite intelligence of the plenum. This will allow a unified field correction to the flow into the field. Other wise you only succeed in creating a multitude of karmic spin cycles that can take life times to sort out.

Well, maybe I should have stated my experience in these matters when I wrote this post but at the time I was not writing about myself autobiographically. I only wanted to add to the public discussion my perspective for consideration.

Assuming I had not, you asked, “why have you not found a shaman willing to have you as their apprentice”? The fact is that is exactly what I did and the perspectives I’ve shared come from 17 years of living with my teachers learning these ways. The “35 years seeking” I spoke of simply meant that I had been on this path for that long. I’m 47 now and I wrote the above post when I was 46. So I had calculated that I began my shamanic journey in this life time at the age of 9, although I didn’t really know that’s what it was until the age of 11, so I came up with the 35 years as a time reference to how long I’ve lived this path. I do mean that I’ve actually lived this path, this is not metaphorical, I did not learn these ways from a college course in anthropology I devoted my life to this journey.

I’ve had the great fortune to meet and learn from many medicine men and woman. But most importantly I was able to live with and to learn from two very special teachers in my life. One a highly respected Arapaho elder and medicine man who himself had undergone a 30 year training process to be called by his people “a doctor”. As well as a Yaqui medicine man who basically adopted me as his nephew. This is not to boast I’m simply answering your question.

I was born in Oklahoma and as with many Oklahomans we have Cherokee blood in our family tree. Unfortunately though this was never something that anyone was eager to boast about. For instance, my sweet little great grandmother was willing to admit that we had Cherokee blood but she was never willing to admit that we had Choctaw as well in our family tree. You see amongst the fair skinned people the civilized tribe of the Cherokee was acceptable but the darker skinned Choctaw was not a people that you wanted to be related to. This is also why my family distanced themselves from anything even slightly native and lived as white as the rest of them. So when I wanted to learn the indigenous ways I just had to seek the path as anyone these days must do even if you are born on a reservation.

My Arapaho teacher had always talked about what the old people knew and about how much had been lost. His father was sent to the Christian schools where they cut his hair, gave him a new name and beat him if he spoke his native tongue. As a boy my teacher also had to go to these schools where he was treated with the same amount of cruelty. Despite surviving genocide they did what they could to maintain their ancient ways. The fact is very much was lost.

You revealed your own lack of experience in these ways when you made this statement:

“I've yet to encounter an indigenous shaman (NA or SA)using holotropic breath work, magic squares or doing yoga poses”.

I’m just guessing but I doubt that you’ve ever been shone how to do an elk dance. The fact is that there are many indigenous practices that most certainly use the same basic principles as yoga, holotropic breath work and complex sacred geometry. What I was taught is a very refined spiritual science. Your ignorance of this is very understandable, most people even full blood Native Americans have been just as misinformed as you have.

As well, I was encouraged by my Arapaho teacher to study Traditional Chinese Medicine because, as he put it, “They still know a lot of the old ways”. So I spent six years studying in a Chinese medicine school.

Now, about shamanism being a purely earth centered spiritual practice. I stand by this definition based upon my extensive study of indigenous practices. Every indigenous spiritual practice that I’m aware of has been based on accessing and utilizing earth frequencies in cooperation with animal and plant spirits. This is what distinguishes shamanic practices from other spiritual systems. Note that I specifically used the term “centered” this simply indicates a center point it does not imply any type of boundary.

I completely agree with your statement that, “All valid paths are individual and internal, they cannot be taught or learned from books. It does not become usable knowledge until you internalize and use it yourself”. This is very true.

Although if anyone wishes to have an intelligent discussion about these individual and internal experiences and discoveries then one needs to use a common language. Any intelligent discourse will seek clarity through accurate definitions. Throughout the ages philosophers have shared their thoughts and experiences with each other through intelligent dialogue. If there is confusion the logical path is to attempt to refine the definitions of the words one uses. Otherwise the conversation lacks coherency and becomes useless. The ability to define ones terminology is directly proportional to ones comprehension of the topic.

The landscape of these invisible spirit realms has been the meeting place of shamans throughout the ages. This timeless realm is where the knowledge has been shared and this is why the indigenous ways share so many similarities.

Well Cee, clearly my writing is just not for you then. Although lets at least be honest, if you’re going to create arguments out of thin air then at least own up to them. You wrote, “my comment was not meant to challenge”. This is just disingenuous after statements like:

“These are meaningless distinctions seemingly meant to exclude others from your wonderful path (which you do not appear to truly grasp even yet)”.

“...denouncing all those who use similar methods for differing purposes as being outside of your selected path as you define it”.

You see, if I am going to contest something you’ve said I will at least do you the courtesy of quoting you directly.

Just to clear things up a little for others who may be reading this without reading things into it that I haven’t said either directly or indirectly. There isn’t anything within my text that denounces anyone. I wrote the following to make that point clear.

“Of course terminologies will change with the times and what does or does not define any word is going to debatable. But that's cool because the more directions of perception there are the more whole our view of anything becomes. So this is how it looks from my perspective. From where I sit in the circle this is what it looks like to me.”

The point in that statement was that everyone's perspective is valid and even necessary,
I’m simply putting forth my perspective based on experience for the consideration of others and to engage in intelligent discussion. Which is exactly what was happening with all the other comments to this thread. There is a very good exchange of perspectives and viewpoints happening here.

So anyway I felt that a bit of my personal history may help to point out that at least I'm not a novice in these things or simply a dabbler. Not just for you Cee but for anyone reading this. I don't feel that I’ve reacted defensively although I did find your hubris and conjecture quite annoying. Of course these feelings arise out of my ego.

For instance you wrote, “The Shaman I know would define their use of their methods as spirit centered or human centered, IF they felt the need to define themselves or what they do to others. Communication with spirits of plants, or animal guides does not take place in this world. The shaman has to go elsewhere to attain the knowledge, they cannot just go up to a plant or animal, sit down and start asking questions. They go into the spirit world and they bring back knowledge to treat humans.”

You really need to meet some other shamans if this is the case. If this is truly what you’re being told then you’ve been sadly mislead. Communication with the spirits of plants, or animals most certainly does take place in this world, for there is only one. This world is the same world as the spirit world you allude to, there is no real separation. You most certainly can walk up to a plant or animal, sit down and start asking questions. Asking the questions is the easy part it’s hearing the answers that takes some doing. What you call “this world” is just a facade, a surface illusion that hovers like a fog obscuring your view of the real world. What's real is pure spirit and consciousness. Shamans have just learned to see through the fog. I don't care if you agree with this or not. I'm just being honest, you will of course make your own mind up about it all. The real world is where the shaman lives. It is right here, in front of your face, closer to you than your own heart beat.

The last point I’ll attempt to make here is this, the similarities and connections I’ve referred to cannot be found on the surface of how things appear to be. They are found in the reality behind the fog.