Castaneda was a fake! A charlatan, I tell you!
posted by Benjamin Bongstein | August 7, 2010
- Login or register to post comments
- Print this page
Delicious
Digg
StumbleUpon
Propeller
Reddit
Magnoliacom
Newsvine
Furl
Facebook
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
IcerocketI just started reading Castaneda, inspired by a few fellow evolvers. The first book I purchased was Journey to Ixtlan. I sped through a hundred pages before I could put the thing down. It was amazing! It was inspiring! It was Magical. And then I found it was fake.
Or was it?
The book truly impresses me, which is why I decided to google more about the man Castaneda. And what do you know! Controversy. Are the books real? Did he bind his 'witches' to a suicide pact? What's the deal with his creepy daughter/lover/energy scout?
At first I wondered if all this trash would damage my view of the knowledge. Is it real, I wondered. Some, or many, say don Juan was never real. That Castaneda didn't even make those journeys, that it was a pure work of fiction.
Then I realized how much magic I had learned from complete fiction. And I reminded myself of the false dichotomy that the fiction/non-fiction perplex tends to perpetuate.
In fact, I found myself debating the very nature of reality! "What is real? Define real." Morpheus asks of us.
And then I just kept reading the effing book. It's awesome, powerful, and engaging. I am learning technology after technology, and the power comes not from the inventor but the science. Who cares that it was really Benjamin Franklin's pet mouse who invented electricity, and he just took credit? If it works...
I would actually comment on the contents of what I'm reading, but I don't think I can do that until I finish the book and reread several parts of it. I don't completely understand the sorcerer's worldview yet.
Still, I can already tell I'm going to read the entire series.
Comments
if something is true, then
— Aug 08, 2010
if something is true, then it does not matter at all who wrote it. It's true!
“An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come.”-Victor Hugo
The Facts of Fiction
— Aug 08, 2010
I read through the whole series over the years as each new book came out .... read the initial "trilogy" in 1973-4 ...
I never even heard of the fictional interpretations until about a decade ago. I've read through so many such renderings over the last several years ... and am no closer to a conclusion ...
Purely fictional books, movies etc can still evoke true-time emotional responses ... where as so-called real events can often leave one with nothing.
Truth exists in the ethers as much as in the mind. However it makes itself known ... well that is up to each of us to determine relative to our own capacity for truth to be received.
By the time I even think about it .. it just doesn't seem to matter. None of my 70's friends ever thought about it one way of another .. we all just said "wow" ... and that went for everyone ... all across the board.
Imagination, the Next Great Frontier
— Aug 08, 2010
I am someone who actively challenges people to re-evaluate the role of the Imagination. It is clear to me that, whatever our hearts live, surely the imagination, or something that we out here would call "art" and "imagination," lives there as well.
But I want there to be some discrimination as well. It is not enough to say, "The distinction is blurred." Because if something important is going on in there, we need to look in an effort to clarify.
What are the pieces?
Personally, I would throw falsehood out. If someone writes a thing, and says, "This is literally true," and it is not literally true, then I would be forthcoming and say, "This is not literally true."
A Quote
— Aug 09, 2010
This is a great response, from Journey to Ixtlan, to my query.
"It is here that a warrior has a point of advantage over the average man. An average man cares that things are either true or false, but a warrior doesn't. An average man proceeds in a specific way with things that he knows are true, and in a different way with things that he knows are not true. If things are said to be true, he acts and believes in what he does. But if things are said to be untrue, he doesn't care to act, or he doesn't believe in what he does. A warrior, on the other hand, acts in both instances. If things are said to be true, he would act in order to do *doing*. If things are said to be untrue, he still would act in order to do *not-doing*."
Aum guru!
If you notice every
— Aug 09, 2010
If you notice every important "master" has done something horribly wrong, from Osho to Castaneda to Jesus. It is to decrease the followers, its like a sift of true seeking. You are not a saint unless you have offended 1000 wise men.
The principle behind most everything he says is true. What is the purpose of it all? To become more fractal. The "place of power" is the most fractal place in the room. "personal power" is your amount of coherence and he says" Personal power is all that is needed to enter new worlds"
~*~
— Aug 09, 2010
Certainly the power of imagination has it's place in the greater universe and whether or not the journeys were real or not is kind of here and there. if they happened in his imagination, in his mind then they happened and that is how art is created, through the power of your imagination. Though if they didn't and if it was a lot of imagination then he should have said something. just seems right. I have not read Carlos yet, but i am not opposed yet I have to wonder about a few things. Like...why all the death? He had three witches that renounced their families and went into secrecy with Carlos, into hiding almost it seems and then they all just vanished when he died. And then there is the thing about the Blue Scout, Patricia Partin, who also disappeared after his death, but was found in 2003 in Death Valley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Partin
here:
"In his book The Art of Dreaming, Castaneda describes an encounter during a lucid dreaming session with a supposed conscious entity that was trapped by other inorganic beings. The trapped entity was named the Blue Scout because its "energy" appeared blueish and it was an energetic scout (meaning it was outside of its original realm). The Blue Scout was apparently bait used by the inorganic beings to trap Castaneda as well. But instead they (Castaneda and the Blue Scout) escaped by supposedly merging their energies.
The alleged result of merging their energies was that the Blue Scout followed Castaneda to our world. Furthermore, Castaneda claimed that he gave the Blue Scout a human physical body by helping Carol Tiggs give normal birth to her.
A real girl was brought forward at various public sessions Castaneda and Tiggs and introduced as the Blue Scout, and Tiggs was referenced as her mother. This is strange because that girl was someone named Patricia Partin who had real, known biological parents other than Castaneda and Tiggs.
The remains of Partin, sometimes referred to by Castaneda as Blue Scout, Nury Alexander and/or Claude, were found in 2003 near where her abandoned car had been discovered a few weeks after Castaneda's death in 1998, on the edge of Death Valley. Her remains were in a condition requiring DNA identification, which was made in 2006.
It's just kind of creepy and wierd and why all the secrecy and death and silence? I'm just honestly wondering really.
In Lak'ech Ala K'in
Just read them
— Aug 09, 2010
Yeah, to be honest, I was *shocked* when I read about the later controversies. Because his books are profound, well written, and very sane. When I found out about all the "death" as you put it, I was let down. Then I got over it.
My theory, and I'm still reading the books and learning about the worldview and carlos and don Juan, but my theory is that Carlos reached something solid. Anyone who's decently liberated, as mentioned above, will offend those who are not. Offending people is NOT demonstration of liberation, but it is an often unfortunate side-effect. Curiously, exploration and examination of that offense can often lead the ignorant into liberation as well.
So just read the books. I'd say start with Journey to Ixtlan, because it starts from the very beginning and maintains strong coherence. Read it read it read it. I can't recommend it enough, even if its so you know more about this insanity in the desert. Its remarkable, unique, and unlike anything I've ever come across. Though it at times reminds me of the Necronomicon but with completely different aesthetics.
~*~
— Aug 10, 2010
when i find one i will read it, however...looking at the creator of these books, these worlds, these journeys i see a man wrapped in mystery and secrecy with death hovering around him like a strange shroud that no one wants to really look at. people died very strangely around this man. why would the Blue Scout have died like that? certainly one could say that she was upset over his death and went a travelin' like the other women and that is where she met her death, but it smells peculiar to me. I will have to read his work to fully understand and see into it, but it is all a little wierd and when there is wierdness and darkness in the core of the creator there will be darkness in everything that person does and touches.
again, i've never read his books, and god often sends us on journeys we never thought we'd go on, but just from the short stories surrounding his real life I am leery of going too deep into his world with all seriousness. so much controversy is abrasive and the path of least resistance is the way of water and lightning and air...of nature. I'm not trying to offend anyone, i am only speaking my mind from my point of view. I'm pretty neutral really because i believe that much was real and perhaps much was imagined. Carlos seems half and half, someone to take seriously and someone to take lightly. Even if imagined, whoever said something about learning from works of fiction, it's true. JRR Tolkien is a huge influence and guiding light to me because he brings nature to life as if God were speaking through everything like she does and because of the highly prophetic qualities as well. Aside from being one of the most brilliant writers to ever put marks on paper who could deny that Tolkien had his third eye on the future when he wrote that and channeled some pretty heavy truths? Philip Pullman with the Dark Materials books and JK Rowling too. It's all true, just different perspectives on the darkness that is threatening to encompass us coupled with the magical solutions to help us, because certainly magic exists, if you believe it does, and the ability to dream, imagine, spell your way out of this rather dismal state of affairs on earth is all around you and inside you at all times. At least Carlos had the ability to dream big dreams, however strangely they turned out. If imagined he really should have come forward and said so and perhaps his ego kept him from doing this, hence the secrecy. When we hide things inside we begin to hide things outside of us. As within so without.
I don't know if Carlos mentions God at all ever, but I believe in God/Allah/Jah and magic from that One Divine Source. Magic from nature and from sound and vibration and color feelings and intuition. I know woman who has herself all wrapped up in this Lazaris dude, but it's just this guy named Jack talking about magic and sensual magic and talkin' real slow and his double cd's are $50 and the crystals are expensive and it's all a show, a gimic to get peoples money cuz I don't hear him talking about God at all and there are sooooooooooo many freaking cd's that this woman has and it's a bummer really. this cat is preying off of people's need for something higher, something out there to believe in, but God is out there to believe in, all the time and yes Shamanic brews do help to bring you closer to the god without and the god within, but you can talk to god any ole time and tap in and know things, you just have to ask. ask and ye shall recieve right? Knowledge is all around you, you just have to be curiouser and curiouser all the time. Plumb the depths till you hit the core of who you are and what it all means, and then you come back out and do it all over again cuz everything changes and changes again. You are a multiverse unto yourselves and a reflection of the Creator so check in and check out again and again, but always check in with God, speak directly to the Creator, out loud even cuz who cares, and ask for external signs to validate your inner journey. It can be easy to fall for delusion, but you can be visibly shown your true way if you ask and then pay attention.
All our power comes from God and if you do not give your praises and thanks and ultimate gratitude then it's just not right. And again, i haven't read Carlos so i'm certainly not judging there (tho Lazaris is a joke and a half) I'm just being the objective observer with what I know. peace.
In Lak'ech Ala K'in
Warriors
— Aug 10, 2010
The way of the warrior isn't to waste energy sustaining beliefs, but rather go out and discover the curious mystery of our universe for him or herself.
If you have decided that you have found God to exist, then you need not worry about others who don't share that idea or haven't found it yet. Imagine someone claiming to you that electricity didn't exist! Would it matter? No, because you know otherwise.
Also, yes, there is a decent amount about death. But the way it is viewed is rather different and brave. It's more like replacing your fear of death with respect for it, and learning to treat your every action as if it were your last. Impeccably.
Darkness, there is plenty of night and shadow but is it *dark*? Maybe, but it's hard to get that worried about it when don Juan keeps laughing his ass off and clowning around.
The stuff you have read, Blue Scout, etc, are for sure sketchy events. But those are all AFTER he wrote the books, at least I think.
We need not ponder the actions of a liberated millionaire, nor waste the space in our heads judging them, since we may never know the intent behind them.
Either way, the articles don't do the man justice. Which hardly matters but it seems to be stopping you from getting past that to the contents.
If you're not interested, don't worry about it. I'm sure you have found something else just as good for you.
whenever you have a person
— Aug 10, 2010
whenever you have a person that decides to follow a different path, let alone make that path available to others, you're going to have serious push- back from the establishment. I believe that his words are true and enable a person to break free.
Back in my college days, I was an anthro major and ended up only getting a minor because of the constant bombardment from the teaching staff that what they said was law. I personally haven't seen any of those theories turn into law yet and I don't think that I ever will but it showed me that just because they are studying interesting things, doesn't make them any different than say a preacher. If they it's not so, it's not so. Since I was not there when CC was publishing his books, I can only imagine the backlash that was coming out of the academic community.
I choose to believe his teachings because they can be tested and I can experience the results unlike the rantings of academics who feel threatened when an alternative is presented that would invalidate that lovely paper that got them their chair.
a first step
— Aug 09, 2010
there is not a single name that i have heard discussed on this site more than castaneda's....
and the more i hear of him, the more curious i become
so i guess its time that i begin reading his work-
where should i start?
what book comes first?
thanks!
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” -Albert Einstein
Yeah or Journey to Ixtlan. I
— Aug 10, 2010
Yeah or Journey to Ixtlan. I just read that as my first and it was wonderful. Just finished tonight.
I think I'll get separate reality next.
funny you say that cg,
— Aug 09, 2010
funny you say that cg, because the more I hear from fans of castenada the less I have an interest in delving deeper.
“An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come.”-Victor Hugo
anyone interested:
— Aug 10, 2010
anyone interested: http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/ is a good source with notes on every book and also has audio tracks of all the books i think.
His work is like the psychology of becoming fractal/ To become more fractal mentally you really don't have a choice but to read his material besides other Toltec sources. All other sources(religious) are usually masked in massive symbolism making it hard to sift through. Phase conjugation is the hidden key! With it everything he has said makes perfect sense since phase conjugation is the cause of perception let alone heightened perception.
Aruntabear: I read the series the same way, A separate reality first and The teachings last.
Also in the Art of Dreaming book when he talks about looking at your hand in a dream when you are ready to lucid dream is correct. I forget the technical name for it but the hand is mapped with your whole brain, so by staring at your hand you set up a (fractal)feedback loop in your brain. Does anyone know the name? I have went lucid once from finding my hand in a dream. In the book it took him over 3 years to be able to simply find his hand in a dream.
~*Reality is overrated*~
— Aug 10, 2010
Well, this used to be a common debate for me: the work/path VS its creator's life. The Reality. And after I would read an amazing book I used to research for the real deal and read biographies etc etc.
In the long run I realized that words can be so powerful to me, that stand above the possible mortal "inconsistency" of the writer (and I'm not referring to Castaneda). All this information and different paths actually lead me to utilize whatever works, the power of will and belief, and using the symbols and tools that invoke the most out of me.
Fractal Bob is this what you mean?--> Nagualism
If your empathetic enough
— Aug 10, 2010
If your empathetic enough you write the books that you read anyways. Nagualism has some to do with it but like Aruntabear said, Toltec is the best to use. There are a lot of hidden Toltec sources out there. Also they have links to other cultures like the Egyptians/Atlantis/... Lots of pieces to put together. The most important key though is fractal science, it what brings them all together. I use "fractal" as a simple place holder, its a loaded word.
Well hey Wicca is a totally
— Aug 10, 2010
Well hey Wicca is a totally fabricated fictional religion and look at how far thats made it ( am sure a loaded subject for many, but there is no evidence at all that it is not fabricated nor should that matter)... while your at it which religion or spiritual practice isnt? At least buddha new that it was all a projection of the mind... What I dont like about Castenada was that he was not honest about it. I loved his work for years... but then you realized you where lied to... it just sort of ruins it for ya.
BTW there is a great interview with Michael Harner talking about his relaitonship with Castenada and how he kept the secret that it was fictional for years.
Wicca is not fabricated. At
— Aug 10, 2010
Wicca is not fabricated. At the heart of Wicca is fractality. It is the same for all religions: Religion is the hygiene of a fractal. By the way im not Wiccan. So if your approaching it from that angle the "myths" become very real. Everything Castanada said was real if you have the key to unlock it. On a certain path it is natural to realize: Impeccability saves energy! But how exactly are you suppose to achieve that? So I was very ripe when I found his work. It is important to have asked the questions before you get into his work. Everyone shouldn't read his work unless they are ripe enough. If you have never experienced bliss how would you possible understand the language of bliss? It wouldn't make any sense, just like two birds chirping.
He didn't write any of it. Yes he gets credit for it but its not his. Every last thing he talks about is written and talked about long before him but admittedly in code. What came first the chicken or the egg?
So Bob I am guessing that
— Aug 10, 2010
So Bob I am guessing that you would say with the same logic that fabric is also not fabricated?
fabricated: 1. Invent or
— Aug 11, 2010
fabricated:
1. Invent or concoct (something), typically with deceitful intent.
2. Construct or manufacture (something, esp. an industrial product), esp. from prepared components.
am sure a loaded subject for many, but there is no evidence at all that it is not fabricated nor should that matter Well usually I go for evidence for somethings and not against it. So when you say no evidence that its not fabricated, I can't give you any evidence for that. So I don't really know what you mean. I think at some level we agree. I still don't know what you mean when you say "Well hey Wicca is a totally fabricated fictional religion and look at how far thats made it". We may have different mind sets and thinking processes but to me the term fabricated fictional religion? I guess i just don't know what you mean by it. Is there man made religions and God made religions? I don't know it seems like there are connotations you have that I would like to know about.
uhuh.... There is plenty of
— Aug 11, 2010
uhuh....
There is plenty of evidence to support that the history of pagan UK that Wicca is based upon is fictional and used to support other political and social agendas at the time, creating a counter cultural religion based on a a fictional paleolithic mother goddess figure. The fictional nature of the religion was intentionally fictional by its creators. There is a difference between intentional fiction, or "Something invented or concocted, typically with deceitful intentions." Or somthing that maybe be fictional yet was not fabricated with deceitful intentions. Many of the worlds religions may have been created by humans, not with deceiptive purposes, but because they honestly believed that it was true, and with no knowledge that they where actually creating the religion.
I think there lies the difference honestly... is it intentionally deceptive? I dont think it matters why but if it is... then its not honest, and I for one dont feel right about working with a spiritual path that was not based on a foundation of deception. Thats just me though....
Well it takes a lot to get
— Aug 11, 2010
Well it takes a lot to get to this point of view but: There is no such thing as a fictional religion. I have studied a lot of religions and everyone I have studied is based in one thing. If you strip all of the personality worship away from them they are all simply a hygiene to become fractal. Approached from that way everything changes. In a sense Wiccan is more "real" then the rest. It has all the fractal symbols intact which a lot of the other religions have them veiled. So your right about the political stuff but still at the heart of it the symbolism is still there and it is still simply a hygiene. Thats like me saying when you brush your teeth do you use a certain brand for political reasons? That brand is based on a false history so therefore brushing your teeth is a fraud. Also who determines what is history? Don't the people who win the fight decided? It is a "fact" that there is a real mother goddess but it is not literal just like the stuff the other religions say isn't literal. Most of it is encoded alchemy/archemy.
I really do not see your
— Aug 11, 2010
I really do not see your logic with that arguement.
"That brand is based on a false history so therefore brushing your teeth is a fraud."
No, logiclaly the statement would look more like this, The brand is based on a fictional history, and so the hygeine as you put it quite confusingly would be based on a fraudulent history. What you do with that knowledge is up to you. As I said before if your in denile of the fact that its fictional then you have my sympathy.
"Also who determines what is history? Don't the people who win the fight decided?"
Perhaps in the case of wars... but not all history is based on afight or winning a fight. There are histories of the UK that support that there was a celtic reiligion in the UK that was long lasting, and much more then that... but nothing that supports modern wicca.
Well my point was: lets say
— Aug 11, 2010
Well my point was: lets say your right and it is a "fictional religion". Does that mean that the principle behind it is false? That is what I was trying to get at with the toothbrush thing. The fact still remains if you see it or not, that at the root of it, past all the surface mythical fraudulent history if thats what you want to call it, the pure principles will always be there for those with eyes to see. The principles are what are correct, if you wrap it in "Wicca" if you wrap it in "Christianity" The same jewel is still there.
There was no war? Then how did thousands of woman die? Oh they are going to hire a historian that agrees with the woman? I think not. So I don't know that is a personal thing, for me if history goes against common sense...What country was it that is trying to say the holocaust never happened? So to make it clear I am not fighting for "Wiccan" I am fighting for the same principles that created Wiccan along with all other religions. I invite you to show me any evidence that ALL religion is the simple hygiene of a fractal. Good luck with that one.
On a side note is the Egyptian religion a fraud? With all its crazy deities and beings? Modern science has found it is encoded with all of our current knowledge: Genetic engineering and rocket science among others encoded into "neters". On one level yes it is a story but on another it is totally different. So who is to say someones story is fraudulent?
Your method of debate is
— Aug 12, 2010
Your method of debate is seriously lacking in logic bob... I would love to continue but this is getting circular on your end...
Well I guess there is
— Aug 12, 2010
Well I guess there is intellect and there is intelligence. The intellect is good enough for you I guess? I just hope you don't brush your teeth with a Wicca toothbrush or your gums might be fraudulent. Chirp chirp-Coo coo-Rawwk
Ps I would also love to see all your historian sources saying it is so fabricated.
"As a result their
— Aug 10, 2010
"As a result their self-importance will escalate and they will "slam" his work, through their lack of understanding and limited awareness,"
Isnt that the equivilance of saying "well they are just stupid." and ending the debate there?
And Arunta bear, yes Harner has lots of his own problems... no doubt... I have no love for his work. But here you have someone who was freinds with the man talking in an interview after his death about his work being mostly fraudulent. What would his motives be the man is dead... the interview in question is in a more recent issue of shamans drum magaizine.
As i mentioned previously with the Wicca religion believing that it is the continuation of an ancieint religion doesnt make it that more true, beliviing simply doesnt make it so. But as I mentioned with that example... Wicca has fullfilled a lot of peoples needs and is beautiful in its own way regardless if it was based on a fictional history of pagan Europe. I do know this Castenada got me thinking and interested in the work I do now... he opened that door for me, which is great.
If it is fiction
— Mar 13, 2011
then it is perhaps it is one of the greatest works of fiction ever written, so craftily done no one on the surface can see its brilliance. CC was not that brilliant, very smart, yes, brilliant, no.
But it is not fiction because of its complexity. No one has enough imagination to create the unique intricacies within the series not even a team of writers can do that and those concepts have held true over many years. (It must be kept in mind that these books were largely written in the 1960's.) When the concepts are applied too life they work, making them real but didn't you feel, sense that when you read it? That "something" you could not quite put your finger on while reading them was that it was real, that it is real.
Think about it and I'm sure in time you may agree.
