Critique of Zeitgeist Movement and Venus Project

zietgeist and the venus project might not be completely in line with evolvers goals but atleast they have goals and are willing to try to make a change, Maybe there is a middle ground that can be achieved, maybe if we show them what evolver is about we can be that missing link that can bring everything together to create a movement stronger than anything previously conceived.

So glad you posted this, Daniel. I've been an Evolver for longer than I've been a Zeitgeist fan but was just about to post with enthusiasm how my evolver buds would dig the Zeitgeist movement. The two relate and compliment one another pretty well, imo. So good timing for the discussion. ;)

I agree with you that the Zeitgeist paradigm has holes. Technology isn't everything. But it certainly does present a viable solution to many of the basic flaws in our current monetary system, which I think any progressive or 'evolver' should appreciate and embrace, at least for the purposes of practical discussion and possible improvement.

On the same token, I've often felt the Evolver movement has its own holes. We speak often about consciousness and psychic realities (and even love, brotherhood, and outreach) but neglect the very real and relevant material world and the many diverse people in it. I mean, no matter how enlightened anyone gets, we still gotta eat, screw, and take a shit, right? Hoping only to "will" the transformation, via expanded consciousness and vision questing, without being willing to come down from the trip and actually shovel the shit out of our collective front lawn, seems to produce a diffusion of the revolutionary energy. There's no traction with reality in this case and, as we saw with the fizzling of "flower power" in the 1960s, the movement falls off the horse.

If the hippies taught us anything, perhaps we can gather that when you bliss out and retreat from the human or 'mundane' world, those heavy boots that seek to control and start conflict just march right over you. The flower wilts and the free love turns bitter. As the Buddha taught, there must always be a middle way sought. Balance. 'No waste' means nothing (and no one) is left out.

I think the modern revolution needs a synthesis of the two sides. We have to get the materialists to open up to psychic realities, sure. But perhaps we need to get the psychonauts to keep their feet on the ground now and then too, eh? The new Aeon, so to speak, is going to require a well-balanced new breed, I would imagine. Not materialist thugs, nor hippy-dippy gurus. Rather a generation of warrior-priests with a tech edge. Knowledge of how to maintain and preserve the physical world responsibly and abundantly while enjoying the sacredness in each moment and the (inevitable) expanding human consciousness that will blossom as a result.

I'd say a more appropriate stance to take, especially for someone leading a paradigm shift into a better human world, would be to co-opt just about every paradigm driving for change that's out there. Instead of drawing lines in the sand, I say we find the best, most workable parts of each "movement" and fit them together. This isn't compromise, in my opinion, since we all intuitively know that it all has to come together as One anyway eventually, right?

We're one world, one species, one people, one mind. We have to be well-rounded about this. My suggestions/request is that the RS squad get together with the Zeitgeist guys and really talk about how the two can help each other to get us all over that horizon. Same goes for the conspiracy movement. If Alex Jones will put the megaphone down just a moment, maybe we could bridge the gap there too. Those folks know something's wrong, something's corrupt about this system and it needs to change. Hell, Tea Baggers too! Anyone and everyone who wants to throw off this crusty, out-dated system we're in and create something new should be looking for similarities, rather than differences. We all know it must change. Let's all just work together on HOW it can change, eh?

As a side note, I absolutely loved the article Ken Jordan had on RS a year ago or so about open source digital democracy and online identity. Some of those ideas hit the nail on the head for human social organization. Pair that with an integrated system that monitors the world's resources and what wonders could the Human organism come up with together, especially when shown the way by the shamans among us? :)

Onward into the Transformation, shall we? ;)

Some people just need to get over themselves first before they are ready to work with others, sad but true, in my experience when running a not-for- profit working in central America, I found that inviting other not-for-profit orgs and especially other westerners, or grass roots orgs, to collaborate working on projects, the response was surprising considering we all had the same objectives......sustainability and re-empowering indigenous people.

People get caught in their own self-important drama, and owning a self-made identity within that drama, they won't let go of their ego, after creating the attention they got for pointing out the illusion and many continue to get caught up in pointing out the un-truths. They infact would benefit from stepping back and seeing that there are others around them with the openness and willingness to join forces to work towards freedom from the old paradigm.

Continual focus on feeding these un-truths fueled by anger (such as Mr Alex Jones), becomes a distraction in itself. Some people seem rather caught up in these self created limitations, rather than creating solutions and change through momentum by joining forces with others.

Sharing communication and communal action with the same goal, doesn't mean giving up ones own identity, if anything it is an investment in empowering ones community and therefore empowering oneself, if we are to work towards the same objectives. So some people do need to get over themselves to some degree to be truly open to uniting with the same objective (even if they wish to go about it differently, we also must not get distracted by criticizing one another for the different ways we see this vision or how we go about building this vision, its all positive). We can just focus on putting that energy into creating new truths , new realities and sustainable communal action. After all action is what follows communi-cation, so lets just start building and see what happens, that way people will be inspired to be a part of it . =)

http://sailingbeyondknowledge.podOmatic.com

unfolding an ever evolving humanity

Hello Everyone!

Om Ram Ramaya Namaha!

Great Post!

I have often wondered what "Evolvers" thought of "Zeitgeisters" and vice versa. I have also contributed a bit to both sites with a tendency to favor Evolver, because it seems to be a more "open-minded" space; in expressing that All Things are Relevant! The conversations seem, on Evolver, to point more towards Individual Liberation leading to Collective Enlightenment. Rather than Zeitgeist/Venus Project's ideas that if we change the Social Structures of man this will lead to Collective Enlightenment, less abhorrent behavior (if I understand their position correctly?). I know this is simplified and generalized a bit, and both Movements are Moving... (dare I say evolving) but this is a perspective based on notions/generalizations, because neither movement has brought about that Mass Awakening (I like to call the Hundredth Monkey Effect)... yet!

I tend to want to take responsibility for my-Self.... I don't want machines living Life for me. But if Zeitgeist, ends wars, creates peace, helps humanity evolve and enlighten, and helps to get rid of the Shadow Magician's green rectangles, aaaaannnnddd we are free to live the lives that We want to live... call it whatever you want.... I'm in!

Peter Joseph likes to use the word 'irrelevant' a lot, and that concerns me. The Venus Project is One man's vision as to how "technology" can replace the redundant labor of man. I appreciate the Visionary qualities of the Venus Project and I actually dig the design work. BUT we don't really need machines, we just need to sit and meditate a bit more. It REALLY IS, that Simple. But I guess I'm just a "Bliss Ninny".

I think the Inward/Outward polarity is evident in the contrast between Evolver and Zeitgeist, even Alex Jones (Although he is loud as shit, and really does need to chill-out a bit, he is Vigilant, he is Determined, and he's a Hard Worker. He's only 35, he's going to have a heart attack if he keeps it up with the yelling-bit, but his Information about the NWO, Police States, Governments, asks some really great questions?) I think some of Us "new-agers" tend to want to ignore Alex because he's "too loud"... I can understand this... but if you look at the information he presents, a lot of times, it fills in a bunch of gaps and holes that might lead to a personal transformation, an individual awakening? I believe the opposite of this is "burying your head in the sand".

I think it would be awesome to get Evolver, Zeitgeist, Alex Jones (& the "Conspiracy Theorists"), the Burners, the Turners, the Holistic Healers, the Light workers, the Light Bearers, the Energy Manipulators, the Raw Foodies, the Shamans, the Native American Tribes (that we haven't killed off), together and have huge Dance Party. But that might be too "idealistic". We might actually get to know each other... hhhhhhhmmmm?

I, personally, like the Dharma... it's more peaceful in the Dharma. War/Conflict does end when we accept our own, Individual Dharma. This expression reflects its' Self in the Collective.

Hi-Technology will save our Species? I think Hi-Consciousness is where we might want to start focusing a bit more of our attention. Individual Evolution is Conscious Revolution... Creative Expansion, Social Inclusion, not scientific degradation. Nature's Technology is pretty awesome on it's own, if humans would learn to stay out of the way a bit more... to think more like a Co-Creator, rather than, I don't know, an arrogant, ignorant, egotistical, ass-muncher.

When I worked on the organic farm this past summer (insert Evolver Gold Stars Here) I noticed something very profound.

A.) Humans make Life a lot more complex then it really Is (in terms of our practical behavior) ... that whole Samsara/Drama/Suffering thing.

B.) We dug little holes. We put little seeds in the holes. We covered the holes up. We watered them. And a few weeks later we survived... we SURTHRIVED! It was the best summer I've ever had... and I ate the most nutrient-dense, "local", food I ever had.

C.) THREE ACRES could feed over 100 people... easily. It is said that One man (or woman) can efficiently and successfully manage 24 acres of land. That's a lot of FOOD.

D.) Permaculture is THE NEW PARADIGM, everyone's been talking about!!!! Most of Us seem to want to ignore this. We can setup self-sustaining Eco-systems, to self-regulate and produce FOOD!!! Do we really need fancy machines and gadgets? I like "Technology", in fact I'm probably "addicted" to the Internet but WHY is Technology synonymous with Machine? Why, when I say Technology, do we not think about Natural Eco Systems? Or Bees?

E.) Humans can co-create a more efficient and self-sustaining environment by working with animals, rather than consuming them. Prime example. Bee - Keepers. A very beautiful, symbiotic relationship, with minimal casualties.

If Zeitgeist starts talking more about Gardening, Hydroponics, Permaculture, Creative Expression, Conscious Awareness, Collective Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, Atomic Consciousness, Health, Meditation, Mudra, Mantra, Painting, Poetry, Love-making and laughing, then I will probably pay attention to their modus-operandi a bit more... but even then, what I do as an Individual out-weighs, what the "collective" does... on such a quantum level that it baffled Einstein. Think about it!

And what about the Integral Spirituality and the Conscious Evolution crews? Ken Wilber? Andrew Cohen? All those crazy little monks and all their novels? I mean did those people really meditate in caves for years, to come out to write books? Really? I realize there is an Industry of Spirituality but it does point to some Truth? Some practical applications that have amazing results and benefits.

Personal Anecdote:

About two years ago I started repeating the mantra " I am happy. I am healthy. I am 200 pounds." While I ran on the treadmill; I weighed-in at 285 pounds. I had "weight-issues" my whole life. Less then 5 months later... I kept repeating the mantra and I weighed 220 pounds. 3 months after that, I was still repeating the mantra, and I weighed 190. Less than a year after that I weighed/weigh 172 pounds. And I now have an arsenal of mantra that helps me get shit done. All of my physical/emotion/mental/and spiritual ailments disappeared. I can run insane distances with very little training and I have an insane amount of Energy, always! Mostly because I started taking responsibility for my Energy, my Behavior, and my Life!

How does science measure that experience? How will machines tell me what that means to me? Peter Joseph says Metaphysics, mysticism, and the supernatural are "Irrelevant"... I think we need to kidnap our Brotha, and take him on an Entheogenic journey, I think this has the potential to change his tune, to open up his frequency a bit. I see a lot of similarities between Daniel Pinchbeck and Peter Joseph, their attention to oration and language, their ambition, their drive, their essence... even Alex Jones (another one who needs to go on a Vision Quest). But the most blatant contradiction, in the Z-movement, in his understanding of Consciousness and it's metaphysical/mystical foundation, lies in the name; Zeitgeist. PJ seems to attribute conscious evolution to science's "Memes"... but the Buddha talked about that shit over 2,500 years ago? Are we really going to sit around and wait for "science" to catch up? Or are we going to use our IMAGINATIONS, our CREATIVITY, and our power to CREATE? Numbers, angles, squares, rectangles, pyramids... haven't these shapes run our lives for long enough? I want golden spirals, and beehives. I want tree-house dwellings and fresh Spring Water. I want Love and laughing... creative expression! But I guess, most of us want to wait until the numbers are in, for a bunch of machines to tell us some numbers?

Here's some numbers for you "science"-types:

0101010101010101010101010101010000010101010101

&

E=MC2

Are we closer to living Enlightenment? Are we Awake? Are we aware? Do We Care? Do we want to Co-create Now?!!!

We are Here. We are Now. We are Love. We are Light. We are whatever We want to Be... and We don't need permission!

Om Eim Saraswatyei Swaha!

Peace Profound

::)
Dustin

Excellent points made by all here, I agree 100%. The problem with social "movements" for progressive radical transformation is that they consistently fall victim to outside influences, usually orchestrated by covert government infiltration campaigns set up and designed to cause discord between participants in an effort to "divide and conquer" these groups. COINTELPRO was used just for this purpose during the revolutionary movements of the 60's and early 70s. What needs to be done is for all of us to abandon our petty egos and formulate cohesive alliances among those who propose serious grassroots efforts with as many failsafe strategies put into place as possible. The "conspiracy movement" as someone above refered to absolutely MUST be taken into consideration. These are the warriors of our time as they are utterly fearless when exposing establishment corruption in the face of a brainwashed obedient-to-authority public. Let's say that a massive coalition was to be formed between the "new energy" movement (evolver/RS/etc), the zeitgeisters/venus people, along with the anti-conspiracy movement, there is still the clear and present probability that our opposition (the global elite) will attempt to destroy our coalition. This is what happened to the "anti-globalization" movement during the turn of the milliennium. This is what happened to the countercultural movements of the 60s. We need to form airtight coalitions built on a spiritual solidarity that is completely removed from organized religious structures (dogma) that are lead by (if leaders are even a necessity) the indigenous peoples of the world. That, I believe, is the key to our evolution as a species. The tribal peoples of the world hold the secrets to our future, especially the Native Americans IMO. But we cannot ignore the reality that there IS a "new world order" founded on fascist principles that will seek to destroy our progress toward a positive future. In fact this agenda is in its extreme advanced stages. They have only our slavery and misery in mind. Yes, we have an enemy. It is called the global elite and its ever-loyal legion of mercenaries. And most terrifying of all, there is abundant evidence that this secretive elite is indeed...for lack of a better word, satanic. We are proposing a great society for our future and the future of the next generations, however do not be naive enough to believe that we won't be met with overwhelming opposition to our goals. Only a truly spiritual renaissance can be our saving grace, and the Venus Project people need to understand that spirituality and organized religion are essentially antithetical to one another.

Evolver Group: http://www.evolver.net/group/zeitgeist_movement

Also...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpdLLOiI3fk&feature=player_embedded#

One of my favorite Facebook friends just recently started a new FB group called Beyond The Venus Project. Hey, even Fresco always says that he's open to new ideas! I'll let the description speak for itself:

Category:
Organizations - Community Organizations

Description:
The Venus Project is apparently the best option for humanity. The Zeitgeist movement promotes this paradigm in their movies and the project has attracted international attention.

We here see through the "wow factor" of TVP and see many flaws in the design and no transitional plan (a big part of their design mistake). We are all about what I call the "Local sustainability paradigm" (LSP).

Please see our discussions and links.

Privacy Type:
Open: All content is public.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?croperror&pid=130984&id=100000646154171#!/group.php?gid=113480501997370&ref=ts

Boadie, you say:

"Also, I saw a film clip on You Tube in which Bill Clinton attended a Z-Day event, and everybody in the audience clapped for him! WTF?"

Where is this clip?

Also, the Zeitgeist Movement does not shut out spirituality. It just simply states that spirituality will not provide food and shelter for the entire world. Technology and responsibly managing the Earth's resources are what's key.

mWinter, as I said, I've had no personal experience with Z or TVP. Somebody else said they were involved with the Z movement until they felt that their spirituality was looked down upon, but now I can't find where that was written.

In my view, every organization involves a lot of different individuals, and therefore I wouldn't generalize based on this one person's account, especially since the Z films obviously carry a spiritual message. I'm just saying that I have seen the poo-pooing of spirituality in action in left-wing movements, and perhaps some people have had some bad experiences with certain segments of certain movements. But, as I said, that's still no reason to discount the entire organization or the entire movement.

Here is the clip of Bill Clinton at a big Z-Day event in '07. He was a "surprise guest." The crowd doesn't exactly go wild, but there is loud applause. Clinton appears via satellite, not in person. He sounds completely disingenuous in every way, which of course he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43sUEFcD4Ro

Yes, to the idea of networking many levels of conscience. Evolver does seem to accomplish good , 'open source' research in bringing various diverse people 'together'. The rigid forms of forcing big egos to over-control projects is bothersome-- Using high tech already presents natural limits, in today's world with so many unwanted people (from the rigid-controller's perspective). Mother-conscience and father-evolution seems to present expected challenges to society to overcome all difficulties through free-will, (rather than through rigid control mongers).

Taking networks to a new level does require accessibility. I expect many needed players barely get to use wi-fi hot zones or libraries or limiting phone downloads.... I would therefore expect that the "greatest good for the greatest number" does entail accessible technology, to reach diverse groups of people (while keeping full spectrum portability). Also easy-digestion might be key. I for one find it difficult to read long tracts of text, while i love the spoken word. Computers actually were digitized around text codes. Sound and imagery were sort of tacked on as after-markets. Kudos to ingenious software solutions, but my point is homing in on the best whole-system to deliver networking to that "greatest number".

Unfortunately, it runs into hardware conflicts. I refer to low cost, highly durable systems. Currently i like old, low cost imacs, itunes and mp3s, earphone jacked to old stereo amps, (on 12v battery) to play outdoors where i work (at physical labors- important to keep fit and make some semblance of a living, but increasingly off the grid, an attribute of the creatives). However to deal with lower cost dial up, it seems that computer-text-to-speach can also work-- A way, actually, which also lets one follow text blogs-- Sad to loose voice qualities, but is it not the content behind voices which counts the most? Perhaps this sounds like dire-staights, where many of you seem to live more comfortably-- This blog tries to suggest designing whole systems, which will work for all-- Especially back-to-the-land types and assorted 'drop-out' types.... Folks, all who may carry the torch of networks into livings which they can personally sustain. To maintain and to afford, on low incomes and most importantly-- To do so while championing very high ecological standards of much reduced consumerism.

IMHO